Citroen Breakdown and further help!
Discussion
Hi everyone, looking for advice please. I'll try and keep it brief.
I'm a Driving Instructor, I took on a new Instructor and she leased a Citroen C3 1.5 BlueHDI Diesel.
Nomissies with it, shortly after qualifying she bought the car from the lease company on finance through them.
About 6 months after this the car broke down and wouldn't start. It's been serviced more than needed due to the nature of the work.
The car went to a reputable local mechanic who took it apart. We found that at the back of the Cams there's a small timing chain. This had broken. The main Timing Belt was fine. This resulted in 2 bent valves and the head having to come off to repair.
Whilst the car was in, we had the Timing Belt, Water Pump and anything else we needed done to the car to save on further hassle later, it made sense.
Once the car was finished it wouldn't start. At all. Out mechanic contacted a friend who happens to be a Peugeot Master Technician. The use the same engines in their vehicles. His words were that the Engine will never start again, unless the head is completely reworked using a kit available from Citroen. This included new cams, new parts inside the head and other things.
The cost of all the work we had done was £1900 for an Engine not to run. The kit was around £1700 from Citroen. Needless to say, this was astronomical, and the kit was on back order anyway with no time frame given as to stock levels..
The problems with said Engine are common and well known Citroen never recalled these engines and never made people aware that if this chain breaks, your engine is all but dead.
After some deliberation, we approached Crown Customer Care to speak to them, they put us in contact with their Goodwill Team as the car was out of Warranty. They at first didn't repay the correct information to the Goodwill Team who thought I was seeking Compensation for the work down, which we were not, we just wanted Citroen to look at the car, confirm if there was an issue and help from there if possible.
I agreed to take the Car to out local Citroen Dealer, they quoted a cost of £144 to check it over, Citroen would not cover this. After 24hrs in the Garage, the Dealership contacted me to say that they couldn't really see anything without tearing the engine down at a cost of £800+
Intold then at this point not to touch it until further instruction as we simply can't afford that bill on too of the rest.
The car is still there now, not running.
Citizens Advice think I should be speaking to the Finance Company, but not sure what joy we would get there.
I will be writing to the MD of Citroen to see if he can assist.
There we have it, a Dead Car, a Huge Bill and no idea where to go next. Can anyone offer any advice at all as to what to do next?
Is it worth getting an independent inspection on the engine? I'm at amloss, both financially and mentally over this stupid car!
Help!
Thanks for reading,
Chris
I'm a Driving Instructor, I took on a new Instructor and she leased a Citroen C3 1.5 BlueHDI Diesel.
Nomissies with it, shortly after qualifying she bought the car from the lease company on finance through them.
About 6 months after this the car broke down and wouldn't start. It's been serviced more than needed due to the nature of the work.
The car went to a reputable local mechanic who took it apart. We found that at the back of the Cams there's a small timing chain. This had broken. The main Timing Belt was fine. This resulted in 2 bent valves and the head having to come off to repair.
Whilst the car was in, we had the Timing Belt, Water Pump and anything else we needed done to the car to save on further hassle later, it made sense.
Once the car was finished it wouldn't start. At all. Out mechanic contacted a friend who happens to be a Peugeot Master Technician. The use the same engines in their vehicles. His words were that the Engine will never start again, unless the head is completely reworked using a kit available from Citroen. This included new cams, new parts inside the head and other things.
The cost of all the work we had done was £1900 for an Engine not to run. The kit was around £1700 from Citroen. Needless to say, this was astronomical, and the kit was on back order anyway with no time frame given as to stock levels..
The problems with said Engine are common and well known Citroen never recalled these engines and never made people aware that if this chain breaks, your engine is all but dead.
After some deliberation, we approached Crown Customer Care to speak to them, they put us in contact with their Goodwill Team as the car was out of Warranty. They at first didn't repay the correct information to the Goodwill Team who thought I was seeking Compensation for the work down, which we were not, we just wanted Citroen to look at the car, confirm if there was an issue and help from there if possible.
I agreed to take the Car to out local Citroen Dealer, they quoted a cost of £144 to check it over, Citroen would not cover this. After 24hrs in the Garage, the Dealership contacted me to say that they couldn't really see anything without tearing the engine down at a cost of £800+
Intold then at this point not to touch it until further instruction as we simply can't afford that bill on too of the rest.
The car is still there now, not running.
Citizens Advice think I should be speaking to the Finance Company, but not sure what joy we would get there.
I will be writing to the MD of Citroen to see if he can assist.
There we have it, a Dead Car, a Huge Bill and no idea where to go next. Can anyone offer any advice at all as to what to do next?
Is it worth getting an independent inspection on the engine? I'm at amloss, both financially and mentally over this stupid car!
Help!
Thanks for reading,
Chris
I'd want to know what this head re-work kit mumbo jumbo translates to in terms of actual metal components?
What's actually wrong with the head to need this kit?
What does the kit do?
It's a diesel engine.
To work it needs the valves to open and close, the fuel to be squirted in at the right time, the right compression etc?
So what exactly is not happening that's defeated the esteemed local spanner man?
I fear we are now in a world where cars are like washing machines, scrap if they fail out of warranty, because they are not actually intended to be mended.
It's not helped by most 'mechanics' rarely having an engine to pieces these days, we've got used to not needing to take heads off etc.
I think my last 5 cars have gone to the breakers without ever having a head off, 3 of them after more than 180k miles.
What's actually wrong with the head to need this kit?
What does the kit do?
It's a diesel engine.
To work it needs the valves to open and close, the fuel to be squirted in at the right time, the right compression etc?
So what exactly is not happening that's defeated the esteemed local spanner man?
I fear we are now in a world where cars are like washing machines, scrap if they fail out of warranty, because they are not actually intended to be mended.
It's not helped by most 'mechanics' rarely having an engine to pieces these days, we've got used to not needing to take heads off etc.
I think my last 5 cars have gone to the breakers without ever having a head off, 3 of them after more than 180k miles.
Could the mechanic ask their master tech friend what parts are actually needed and which one of the kits available online would be suitable?
"This customer has spent £1900 and it's still broken. If it was your favourite granny on a small pension who needed the car to get to the bingo, what's the cheapest way to get it running?"
"This customer has spent £1900 and it's still broken. If it was your favourite granny on a small pension who needed the car to get to the bingo, what's the cheapest way to get it running?"
Here`s a possibility, the cam lobes have spun on the shaft.
ie they are not an integral part of the camshaft and are an interference fit.
If this is the case the timing will be way off and the engine will never run until a new camshaft with the lobes in the correct orientation is fitted.
Just a suggestion....
ie they are not an integral part of the camshaft and are an interference fit.
If this is the case the timing will be way off and the engine will never run until a new camshaft with the lobes in the correct orientation is fitted.
Just a suggestion....
The issues of a failing '7mm' cam to cam chain in the PSA 1.5 engine are well documented in online forums for the various Citroen/Peugeot models that used that engine. I suspect the 'kit' described is a conversion kit to the wider 8mm chain that was fitted to the most recent variants of the engine.
chrisch77 said:
The issues of a failing '7mm' cam to cam chain in the PSA 1.5 engine are well documented in online forums for the various Citroen/Peugeot models that used that engine. I suspect the 'kit' described is a conversion kit to the wider 8mm chain that was fitted to the most recent variants of the engine.
Some bloke on a Berlingo Facebook group said:
Bit of a long one, but any answers would be appreciated as I’m trying to build a case against Peugeot.
Has anyone tried and been successful of getting a goodwill gesture out of Peugeot UK after their 7mm chain has snapped/failed? My van was 3 month out of warranty and only had 35,000 miles with full service history (independent VAT registered garage with dealer parts used) when the engine failed. I spoke to Peugeot UK who advised I had to book it in at my local dealer for inspection at a cost of £96 (may have to increase if they need more time) and then the dealer would send a report to Peugeot for them to make an informed decision.
My main points being;
If me and the van were in France then there would be no issue as from what I’ve read they repair/replace no questions asked.
The oil specification has been changed by Peugeot since the DV5 engine was launched to try and stop the chain issue.
The chain has now been upgraded to 8mm.
A chain shouldn’t snap if it’s fit for purpose and neither should the tensioner if this is what fails before it’s due to be changed because of mileage.
Also, if you’ve been unfortunate enough to have this issue could you let me know the mileage when it happened to you and also the service history status.
Has anyone tried and been successful of getting a goodwill gesture out of Peugeot UK after their 7mm chain has snapped/failed? My van was 3 month out of warranty and only had 35,000 miles with full service history (independent VAT registered garage with dealer parts used) when the engine failed. I spoke to Peugeot UK who advised I had to book it in at my local dealer for inspection at a cost of £96 (may have to increase if they need more time) and then the dealer would send a report to Peugeot for them to make an informed decision.
My main points being;
If me and the van were in France then there would be no issue as from what I’ve read they repair/replace no questions asked.
The oil specification has been changed by Peugeot since the DV5 engine was launched to try and stop the chain issue.
The chain has now been upgraded to 8mm.
A chain shouldn’t snap if it’s fit for purpose and neither should the tensioner if this is what fails before it’s due to be changed because of mileage.
Also, if you’ve been unfortunate enough to have this issue could you let me know the mileage when it happened to you and also the service history status.
Another bloke on a Berlingo Facebook group said:
I work at a main dealer and Citroën literally with main dealer service history replace without argument....for the few quid you save at an independent anything with a pure tech or 1.5 engine I would take to main dealer , they can't argue with their own service records
chrisch77 said:
The issues of a failing '7mm' cam to cam chain in the PSA 1.5 engine are well documented in online forums for the various Citroen/Peugeot models that used that engine. I suspect the 'kit' described is a conversion kit to the wider 8mm chain that was fitted to the most recent variants of the engine.
I think that chain broke, and has been replaced?The mystic kit must be something else?
Thanks for the replies so far. I've just spoken to the Mechanic, the Kit is for a new Thicker Chain, new Cams and a Ball Bearing that's required for the Oil Pressure to build. The kit is only available via Citroen, this was from the Peugeot Tech.
It's a well known fault from what I've been told and seen on the Internet.
It's a well known fault from what I've been told and seen on the Internet.
Cmakka23 said:
Thanks for the replies so far. I've just spoken to the Mechanic, the Kit is for a new Thicker Chain, new Cams and a Ball Bearing that's required for the Oil Pressure to build. The kit is only available via Citroen, this was from the Peugeot Tech.
It's a well known fault from what I've been told and seen on the Internet.
But he's already repaired it with the old style chain and stuff?It's a well known fault from what I've been told and seen on the Internet.
OutInTheShed said:
Cmakka23 said:
Thanks for the replies so far. I've just spoken to the Mechanic, the Kit is for a new Thicker Chain, new Cams and a Ball Bearing that's required for the Oil Pressure to build. The kit is only available via Citroen, this was from the Peugeot Tech.
It's a well known fault from what I've been told and seen on the Internet.
But he's already repaired it with the old style chain and stuff?It's a well known fault from what I've been told and seen on the Internet.
A proper motor engineer with an understanding of camshafts could try and make it run by setting them using a DTI and their movement around before and after bottom dead centre - I would try that rather than TDC as there is less overlap. That needs the old cams to have been uniformally turned around the camwheels and it may be that they a spiral twisted back to the point of the clashed cylinder in which case they are toast.
Buy French <> buy twice
Thread about these engines, it seems the cams are fragile.
https://www.peugeotforums.com/threads/1-5hdi-dv5-c...
https://www.peugeotforums.com/threads/1-5hdi-dv5-c...
Segmented camshafts on these engines. Basically the camshaft itself is a tube and the lobes are interference fit on them. Excess torque (i.e. a chain snapping) will cause the lobes to rotate on the shafts. Obviously not ideal, but better than a valve holing a piston.
Replacement cams for the 7mm are not currently available, the best way forward until a solution is found is to fit the 8mm cams, chain, tensioner and other components found in the new kit.
Replacement cams for the 7mm are not currently available, the best way forward until a solution is found is to fit the 8mm cams, chain, tensioner and other components found in the new kit.
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