Dispute with the EA - where do I stand?
Discussion
I have a boat on the Great Ouse river system controlled by the Environment Agency. Each year I pay a licence fee (2024 - about £600) to be able to use it on the river.
The upper reaches of the River Cam, upstream of Bottisham Lock, are controlled by the Cam Conservators. Until a couple of years ago, if you wanted to cruise that stretch - eg into Cambridge (up to Jesus Lock) - you paid the EA an extra 4% which they passed to the Can Conservators. £24, great.
Then the EA scrapped that scheme and replaced it with the 'Anglian Pass' which costs £60. The selling point is that it also gives access to the Middle Level/River Nene. Unfortunately my boat is far from those waterways and I have no intention or desire to cruise on them. I just want to use the Cam into Cambridge. And so in April I stumped up the £60 to be able to do so.
In June, I discovered that one of the locks on that route, Baitsbite Lock, is closed due to subsidence, and it will be out of action for the foreseeable future. This was not known or advised when I bought the Anglian Pass, in fact I think the lock was closed soon afterwards. Therefore I cannot cruise the Cam, which I specifically paid £60 to do.
I have exchanged several e-mails with various levels of EA officialdom but they all say 'No refunds', and point out that I can use the Middle Level/River Nene. But I don't want to. My view is that I've paid to be able to use a facility - the Cam between Bottisham Lock and Jesus Lock - but can't.
The relevant PDF says that refunds won't be issued if you sell your boat during the year, but makes no allowance for a waterway being closed: https://www.visitanglianwaterways.org/_files/ugd/2...
My question is - do I have any grounds to pursue a refund, or does the fact that part of the Anglian Pass can be used over-ride that?
The upper reaches of the River Cam, upstream of Bottisham Lock, are controlled by the Cam Conservators. Until a couple of years ago, if you wanted to cruise that stretch - eg into Cambridge (up to Jesus Lock) - you paid the EA an extra 4% which they passed to the Can Conservators. £24, great.
Then the EA scrapped that scheme and replaced it with the 'Anglian Pass' which costs £60. The selling point is that it also gives access to the Middle Level/River Nene. Unfortunately my boat is far from those waterways and I have no intention or desire to cruise on them. I just want to use the Cam into Cambridge. And so in April I stumped up the £60 to be able to do so.
In June, I discovered that one of the locks on that route, Baitsbite Lock, is closed due to subsidence, and it will be out of action for the foreseeable future. This was not known or advised when I bought the Anglian Pass, in fact I think the lock was closed soon afterwards. Therefore I cannot cruise the Cam, which I specifically paid £60 to do.
I have exchanged several e-mails with various levels of EA officialdom but they all say 'No refunds', and point out that I can use the Middle Level/River Nene. But I don't want to. My view is that I've paid to be able to use a facility - the Cam between Bottisham Lock and Jesus Lock - but can't.
The relevant PDF says that refunds won't be issued if you sell your boat during the year, but makes no allowance for a waterway being closed: https://www.visitanglianwaterways.org/_files/ugd/2...
My question is - do I have any grounds to pursue a refund, or does the fact that part of the Anglian Pass can be used over-ride that?
I’m fairly sure that the stretch of the Cam between Bottisham Locks and Baitsbite is longer than the last stretch up to Jesus Green, and for that fairly nominal sum you get to follow the Cam all the way from Baitsbite back nearly to Ely.
The last little bit is surely not that great for power boat cruising anyway, with all the rowers and house boat ‘crusties’ etc.?
If you want to go into Cambridge during the period the locks are out, you would have quite a lot of options - moor at Clayhithe and get a (very regular) train from Waterbeach, moor at Baitsbite and walk or cycle down the towpath, etc. etc.
The last little bit is surely not that great for power boat cruising anyway, with all the rowers and house boat ‘crusties’ etc.?
If you want to go into Cambridge during the period the locks are out, you would have quite a lot of options - moor at Clayhithe and get a (very regular) train from Waterbeach, moor at Baitsbite and walk or cycle down the towpath, etc. etc.
stuthemongoose said:
Did you part credit card? Maybe can try reverse charge it due to no service delivered?
Bank transfer unfortunately.Foss62 said:
I’m fairly sure that the stretch of the Cam between Bottisham Locks and Baitsbite is longer than the last stretch up to Jesus Green, and for that fairly nominal sum you get to follow the Cam all the way from Baitsbite back nearly to Ely.
Not quite, the £60 is just for the Cam as far downstream as Bottisham. The rest the Cam (where the boat is moored) to its confluence with the Great Ouse at Pope's Corner, and thence to Ely, Denver and west to Bedford is part of the standard licence.Foss62 said:
The last little bit is surely not that great for power boat cruising anyway, with all the rowers and house boat ‘crusties’ etc.?
It's quite interesting, with lots to see and a pleasant change from the usual trip to Ely etc. Dodging rowers is a good test of skill 
Foss62 said:
If you want to go into Cambridge during the period the locks are out, you would have quite a lot of options - moor at Clayhithe and get a (very regular) train from Waterbeach, moor at Baitsbite and walk or cycle down the towpath, etc. etc.
No, the point of the exercise is to arrive at Jesus Lock by boat... which is what I paid for.Simpo Two said:
In June, I discovered that one of the locks on that route, Baitsbite Lock, is closed due to subsidence, and it will be out of action for the foreseeable future.
The fact that the lock is closed owing to subsidence - rather than planned works - suggests that the EA is probably even more disadvantaged than you by the situation. Your OP suggests the subsidence occurred after you paid your fee, so it's dificult to blame the EA.
At the end of the day it's only £60.
Edited on re-reading the OP.
Edited by sunbeam alpine on Monday 23 September 19:32
sunbeam alpine said:
The fact that the lock is closed owing to subsidence - rather than planned works - suggests that the EA is probably even more disadvantaged than you by the situation.
I don't see how; they live in an office block in Peterborough and have no need to get a boat though the lock. The EA look after one side, the CC after the other.sunbeam alpine said:
Your OP suggests the subsidence occurred after you paid your fee, so it's dificult to blame the EA. At the end of the day it's only £60.
It's not the EA's fault, but it's like buying railway ticket to somewhere, then after you've bought the ticket a bridge collapses so the train can't run. I think you'd want your ticket money back.TownIdiot said:
Is the river open on the other side of the lock?
If it is they could argue you can still use it.
It is, but I'd need to lift a 2.5 ton 27' cabin cruiser out of the water, carry it 100 yards, then repeat the process on the way back. It's not a valid argument.If it is they could argue you can still use it.
But I'm not looking for alternative ways to get to Cambridge, this is about the fact I bought a Pass and can't use it for its intended purpose. Is there a contractual issue here?
I can see what you are saying but a better analogy would be wanting your road tax back as a road is closed and you can't get where you are going without a load of hassle.
You haven't booked a specific journey.
You could use it, you are just in the wrong position.
It would piss me off as well, but I can't see how you are due a refund as the waterway is open, you just can't get to it.
You haven't booked a specific journey.
You could use it, you are just in the wrong position.
It would piss me off as well, but I can't see how you are due a refund as the waterway is open, you just can't get to it.
According to the Cambridgshire County Council website the decision to close Baitsbite lock wasn't made until Tuesday 21st May, so about a month after you bought your ticket & the decision to close the locks was by the Conservators of the River Cam so you might be better approaching them to see if they will offer you any compensation/refund.
Appears the decision to close was after a survey organised by the Conservators:
https://www.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/news/river-cam-f...
Perhaps a good thing as you don't want to risk a sudden dewatering due to a collapse leaving you on the bottom.
Appears the decision to close was after a survey organised by the Conservators:
https://www.cambridgeshire.gov.uk/news/river-cam-f...
Perhaps a good thing as you don't want to risk a sudden dewatering due to a collapse leaving you on the bottom.
Edited by paintman on Monday 23 September 20:02
For some reason your post won't quote, but the link says 'Jesus Green Lock and Baits Bite Lock footbridges are today (Tuesday 21 May 2024) being temporarily closed, following the Conservators of the River Cam’s decision to close both locks.'
So it's the Cam Conservators who closed the lock, not the Council.
I took it up with them back in June and got the following replies:
'Thank you for your email regarding the closure of Baits Bite Lock. The lock has been closed since 21 May and notifications have been published on our website and all interested parties including licence fee holders were notified. It would be useful if you could please clarify what licence fee you are referring to so that I can investigate this in more detail.'
and:
'I have investigated your question and approached the EA regarding the fee for an Anglian Pass... If you have any issues with the Anglian Pass please refer this to the EA. As previously stated, the locks will be closed until further notice and any updates will be added to the website.'
In August I got this from the EA:
'To better progress your complaint, we recommend you contact the Clerk for the Conservators of the River Cam directly via their email address: clerk@camconservators.org.uk'
Each side passing the buck to the other. I stayed with the EA because they were the people who'd taken the money, and so that is who I had a contract with. Or did I? That is the question...
So it's the Cam Conservators who closed the lock, not the Council.
I took it up with them back in June and got the following replies:
'Thank you for your email regarding the closure of Baits Bite Lock. The lock has been closed since 21 May and notifications have been published on our website and all interested parties including licence fee holders were notified. It would be useful if you could please clarify what licence fee you are referring to so that I can investigate this in more detail.'
and:
'I have investigated your question and approached the EA regarding the fee for an Anglian Pass... If you have any issues with the Anglian Pass please refer this to the EA. As previously stated, the locks will be closed until further notice and any updates will be added to the website.'
In August I got this from the EA:
'To better progress your complaint, we recommend you contact the Clerk for the Conservators of the River Cam directly via their email address: clerk@camconservators.org.uk'
Each side passing the buck to the other. I stayed with the EA because they were the people who'd taken the money, and so that is who I had a contract with. Or did I? That is the question...
Vasco said:
A lot of fuss about not very much. Hardly worth the hassle surely?
Well, who here would pay £60 for something, and when it doesn't turn up just say 'Oh well never mind'?If there's a case I'll present it to the EA. If a lawyer sees this post and replies 'It's not a contract because...' then I'll leave it.
The PDF I linked to - does that contain enough information to decide?
Simpo Two said:
Well, who here would pay £60 for something, and when it doesn't turn up just say 'Oh well never mind'?
If there's a case I'll present it to the EA. If a lawyer sees this post and replies 'It's not a contract because...' then I'll leave it.
The PDF I linked to - does that contain enough information to decide?
This bit seems quite relevant If there's a case I'll present it to the EA. If a lawyer sees this post and replies 'It's not a contract because...' then I'll leave it.
The PDF I linked to - does that contain enough information to decide?
IS THERE A REDUCTION IN PRICE IF I ONLY VISIT ONE ADDITIONAL
NAVIGATION/I CAN ONLY ACCESS ONE OTHER NAVIGATION?
No. The Pass is a fixed price for the unrestricted visitor access to all three
navigations, whether you choose to or can only visit one other navigation
Ah, well spotted. I had only searched the document for 'refund'. Seems like they win then.
They did tell me that they are going to review the Pass next year - despite originally selling it to boaters as a wonderful thing, I think it was for administrative convenience. It hasn't been popular, and next year sales will crash because the lock will still be closed and that will show the project for the bad idea it was.
£60 up the chimney.
They did tell me that they are going to review the Pass next year - despite originally selling it to boaters as a wonderful thing, I think it was for administrative convenience. It hasn't been popular, and next year sales will crash because the lock will still be closed and that will show the project for the bad idea it was.
£60 up the chimney.
Simpo Two said:
Ah, well spotted. I had only searched the document for 'refund'. Seems like they win then.
They did tell me that they are going to review the Pass next year - despite originally selling it to boaters as a wonderful thing, I think it was for administrative convenience. It hasn't been popular, and next year sales will crash because the lock will still be closed and that will show the project for the bad idea it was.
£60 up the chimney.
They mention the administrative convenience in the pdf.They did tell me that they are going to review the Pass next year - despite originally selling it to boaters as a wonderful thing, I think it was for administrative convenience. It hasn't been popular, and next year sales will crash because the lock will still be closed and that will show the project for the bad idea it was.
£60 up the chimney.
Providing one Pass for boaters to
visit one or more additional navigations, means the administrative work involved and
consequently the costs to our boaters reduce.
TownIdiot said:
They mention the administrative convenience in the pdf.
Providing one Pass for boaters to
visit one or more additional navigations, means the administrative work involved and
consequently the costs to our boaters reduce.
Except the costs to boaters never reduces. I could ask them 'By how much less will the registration fee increase next year due to the Anglian Pass?' but I'd just get corporate waffle back. They'd have no idea, and I suspect the answer is 'nothing'.Providing one Pass for boaters to
visit one or more additional navigations, means the administrative work involved and
consequently the costs to our boaters reduce.
Anyway, I can close the case now, and hope they re-evaluate their stroke of genius next year so boaters get a fairer deal.
Another poster had a simliar problem back in the summer:
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
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