Liability on Coach Companies

Liability on Coach Companies

Author
Discussion

CammyN

Original Poster:

238 posts

6 months

Wednesday 17th July
quotequote all
A football supporters club charters a coach to take them to a match some distance away. Coach company is aware of the kick off time and makes allowances for delays in the journey.


On the way the driver goes in to the back of stationary traffic, clearly at fault. Driver is taken off to the nick. Coach company sends a replacement coach but it takes two hours to get to the accident site and by this time the match has kicked off.

Supporters want the coach company to pay up for the worthless tickets, coach company say that the consequential loss is too remote and they did everything that they could, it was an accident.

Supporters say that the loss is no different than had they suffered physical injuries.

The company agree to reimburse the charter fee.

Does the coach company have a legal liability towards the passengers for their consequential loss?

The booking form is silent on this point.

I was asked this question because one of the passengers knew I had been involved in something similar. An owner driver minibus operator had been hired to take family and friends to Manchester airport, 10 people. the driver became ill, an ambulance was called. Driver was taken to hospital, Police took us off the motorway. We missed the flight and had to take a flight the following day.

Heard from the driver when we came back, he put the illness down to a dodgy curry, he could not/would not help with our extra expense, which was into the thousands, his first reaction was that it would cost more than the fare which he maintained was still payable.


Nezquick

1,525 posts

133 months

Wednesday 17th July
quotequote all
Illness (which is not negligent) is entirely different to negligent driving and being involved in an accident.

The driver of the coach carrying the football fans was clearly negligent driving into the rear of stationary traffic. All losses which therefore flow from that accident have to be covered - the negligent party has to put the injured party back into the position they would have been in "but for" the accident. That will include any expenses such as their lost football tickets.

CammyN

Original Poster:

238 posts

6 months

Wednesday 17th July
quotequote all
Thank you

K4sper

349 posts

79 months

Wednesday 17th July
quotequote all
Nezquick said:
Illness (which is not negligent) is entirely different to negligent driving and being involved in an accident.

The driver of the coach carrying the football fans was clearly negligent driving into the rear of stationary traffic. All losses which therefore flow from that accident have to be covered - the negligent party has to put the injured party back into the position they would have been in "but for" the accident. That will include any expenses such as their lost football tickets.
I'd be sceptical about being as categorical as that. you would first have to identify a breach of either a contractual obligation or a tortious duty of care, and in the later case that the coach operator (via the driver) has breached its duty of care to the passengers. it's not enough to just say that driving into the back of traffic is automatically 'negligent'.

It does seem like in this case though the driver was is some way negligent if the police at the scene thought it necessary to arrest him...

If you can prove that, however, you'll probably having a good chance of recovering the cost of the tickets (IMHO) given that the coach was chartered for the purposes of going to the match and presumably the coach operator was aware of this

KungFuPanda

4,450 posts

177 months

Wednesday 17th July
quotequote all
K4sper said:
Nezquick said:
Illness (which is not negligent) is entirely different to negligent driving and being involved in an accident.

The driver of the coach carrying the football fans was clearly negligent driving into the rear of stationary traffic. All losses which therefore flow from that accident have to be covered - the negligent party has to put the injured party back into the position they would have been in "but for" the accident. That will include any expenses such as their lost football tickets.
I'd be sceptical about being as categorical as that. you would first have to identify a breach of either a contractual obligation or a tortious duty of care, and in the later case that the coach operator (via the driver) has breached its duty of care to the passengers. it's not enough to just say that driving into the back of traffic is automatically 'negligent'.

It does seem like in this case though the driver was is some way negligent if the police at the scene thought it necessary to arrest him...

If you can prove that, however, you'll probably having a good chance of recovering the cost of the tickets (IMHO) given that the coach was chartered for the purposes of going to the match and presumably the coach operator was aware of this
Are you having a laugh. In terms of road traffic accidents, driving into the back of somebody is as clear cut negligence as you can get.

What is in question here is remoteness of loss.

robemcdonald

9,128 posts

203 months

Wednesday 17th July
quotequote all
Did any of the football fans suffer injury in the accident?

It could be any claim for loss due to injury may offset the ticket costs…

BertBert

19,681 posts

218 months

Wednesday 17th July
quotequote all
K4sper said:
If you can prove that, however, you'll probably having a good chance of recovering the cost of the tickets (IMHO)
How good is that chance? There may be negligence and there may be direct losses, but if the coach company digs their heals in you then have to work out how to get court action going which may not be straightforward.

The contract is with the supporters club, the losses have been incurred by the fans. Who is going to take the coach company to court?

E-bmw

9,965 posts

159 months

Wednesday 17th July
quotequote all
robemcdonald said:
Did any of the football fans suffer injury in the accident?

It could be any claim for loss due to injury may offset the ticket costs…
Which could also be called insurance fraud.

CammyN

Original Poster:

238 posts

6 months

Wednesday 17th July
quotequote all
Thank you all for your thoughts.

You may be surprised to learn that claims for personal injury have not been forthcoming, some passengers bumped their forehead, a couple fell on the floor, nothing serious as it was a relatively low speed incident.

The driver has been charged for a driving offence, he also gave police false information and refused to take a breathalyser, it turned out that he had a few pints the night before but he was within the legal limit at the station.

It is conjecture on my part that a small amount of alcohol might have had a bearing on the accident.


robemcdonald

9,128 posts

203 months

Wednesday 17th July
quotequote all
E-bmw said:
robemcdonald said:
Did any of the football fans suffer injury in the accident?

It could be any claim for loss due to injury may offset the ticket costs…
Which could also be called insurance fraud.
How can disclosing an injury sustained in an accident be insurance fraud?

CammyN

Original Poster:

238 posts

6 months

Wednesday 17th July
quotequote all
robemcdonald said:
E-bmw said:
robemcdonald said:
Did any of the football fans suffer injury in the accident?

It could be any claim for loss due to injury may offset the ticket costs…
Which could also be called insurance fraud.
How can disclosing an injury sustained in an accident be insurance fraud?
I think there was the suggestion that if the passenger could not be reimbursed for the ticket then they would try to claim for a bump on the head.

Bill

54,203 posts

262 months

Wednesday 17th July
quotequote all
Surely the coach company's insurers should pay for the tickets?

Collectingbrass

2,390 posts

202 months

Wednesday 17th July
quotequote all
KungFuPanda said:
K4sper said:
Nezquick said:
Illness (which is not negligent) is entirely different to negligent driving and being involved in an accident.

The driver of the coach carrying the football fans was clearly negligent driving into the rear of stationary traffic. All losses which therefore flow from that accident have to be covered - the negligent party has to put the injured party back into the position they would have been in "but for" the accident. That will include any expenses such as their lost football tickets.
I'd be sceptical about being as categorical as that. you would first have to identify a breach of either a contractual obligation or a tortious duty of care, and in the later case that the coach operator (via the driver) has breached its duty of care to the passengers. it's not enough to just say that driving into the back of traffic is automatically 'negligent'.

It does seem like in this case though the driver was is some way negligent if the police at the scene thought it necessary to arrest him...

If you can prove that, however, you'll probably having a good chance of recovering the cost of the tickets (IMHO) given that the coach was chartered for the purposes of going to the match and presumably the coach operator was aware of this
Are you having a laugh. In terms of road traffic accidents, driving into the back of somebody is as clear cut negligence as you can get.

What is in question here is remoteness of loss.
Just because the driver was arrested doesn't mean he was found negligent, just that plod wanted to be able to use their powers following the arrest.

WRT to any loss, what was written down? Was the bus hired to travel to town X on date Y, or was it hired to take 14 adults, 3 OAPS and a kid to a match kicking off at Z pm at ground A in town B at date C with a specified arrival time D minutes before kick off on a best endeavours basis? I'd wager it was the former and if I was the bus operator I would refund you fully in accordance with the hire agreement and only in accordance with the hire agreement.

vaud

52,322 posts

162 months

Wednesday 17th July
quotequote all
Collectingbrass said:
... time D minutes before kick off on a best endeavours basis?
You mean reasonable endeavours. Best endeavours means you will do anything possible and exhaust every course of action. Reasonable endeavours adds a test of unreasonable financial loss in exhausting options (put simply)

"best endeavours" is a common error in contracting smile

robemcdonald

9,128 posts

203 months

Wednesday 17th July
quotequote all
CammyN said:
robemcdonald said:
E-bmw said:
robemcdonald said:
Did any of the football fans suffer injury in the accident?

It could be any claim for loss due to injury may offset the ticket costs…
Which could also be called insurance fraud.
How can disclosing an injury sustained in an accident be insurance fraud?
I think there was the suggestion that if the passenger could not be reimbursed for the ticket then they would try to claim for a bump on the head.
Not from me.

KungFuPanda

4,450 posts

177 months

Wednesday 17th July
quotequote all
Collectingbrass said:
KungFuPanda said:
K4sper said:
Nezquick said:
Illness (which is not negligent) is entirely different to negligent driving and being involved in an accident.

The driver of the coach carrying the football fans was clearly negligent driving into the rear of stationary traffic. All losses which therefore flow from that accident have to be covered - the negligent party has to put the injured party back into the position they would have been in "but for" the accident. That will include any expenses such as their lost football tickets.
I'd be sceptical about being as categorical as that. you would first have to identify a breach of either a contractual obligation or a tortious duty of care, and in the later case that the coach operator (via the driver) has breached its duty of care to the passengers. it's not enough to just say that driving into the back of traffic is automatically 'negligent'.

It does seem like in this case though the driver was is some way negligent if the police at the scene thought it necessary to arrest him...

If you can prove that, however, you'll probably having a good chance of recovering the cost of the tickets (IMHO) given that the coach was chartered for the purposes of going to the match and presumably the coach operator was aware of this
Are you having a laugh. In terms of road traffic accidents, driving into the back of somebody is as clear cut negligence as you can get.

What is in question here is remoteness of loss.
Just because the driver was arrested doesn't mean he was found negligent, just that plod wanted to be able to use their powers following the arrest.

WRT to any loss, what was written down? Was the bus hired to travel to town X on date Y, or was it hired to take 14 adults, 3 OAPS and a kid to a match kicking off at Z pm at ground A in town B at date C with a specified arrival time D minutes before kick off on a best endeavours basis? I'd wager it was the former and if I was the bus operator I would refund you fully in accordance with the hire agreement and only in accordance with the hire agreement.
I’m not relying on the fact that the coach driver was arrested. I’m relying on the accident circumstances. If a driver goes into the back of the vehicle in front, the general rule is that they are negligent.

BertBert

19,681 posts

218 months

Wednesday 17th July
quotequote all
Collectingbrass said:
Just because the driver was arrested doesn't mean he was found negligent, just that plod wanted to be able to use their powers following the arrest.

WRT to any loss, what was written down? Was the bus hired to travel to town X on date Y, or was it hired to take 14 adults, 3 OAPS and a kid to a match kicking off at Z pm at ground A in town B at date C with a specified arrival time D minutes before kick off on a best endeavours basis? I'd wager it was the former and if I was the bus operator I would refund you fully in accordance with the hire agreement and only in accordance with the hire agreement.
The question though is more about consequential liabilities. Did the supporters' club who hired the coach suffer any consequential loss?

CammyN

Original Poster:

238 posts

6 months

Wednesday 17th July
quotequote all
The passengers didn't reach the game, I am guessing that the ticket price was £50 or so, 40 passengers.

KungFuPanda

4,450 posts

177 months

Wednesday 17th July
quotequote all
One of the passengers was planning on putting a four fold acca at the bookmakers when he arrived at the ground. Due to arriving late, he didn’t manage to put the bet on. The bet would have won but for the inability to place the bet.

Vasco

17,344 posts

112 months

Wednesday 17th July
quotequote all
KungFuPanda said:
One of the passengers was planning on putting a four fold acca at the bookmakers when he arrived at the ground. Due to arriving late, he didn’t manage to put the bet on. The bet would have won but for the inability to place the bet.
Good try. Twaddle!!