Insurance and ‘modifications’ - any experiences or insights?
Discussion
The recent PPF thread and the tints and commuting one, probably had many of us checking our own insurance, just in case.
These, and quite a few older threads always get a number of posters asking questions about what might be classed as a modification, so I thought it might be interesting to see if anyone has actually fallen foul of anything unusual or unexpected (other than the PPF one we have all heard about).
My own policy (Quotemehappy) seems quite clear on mods only being after-market, but then comes up with a huge list of possibilities, many of which I have no idea what they mean (Does ‘Debadging’ mean you have to tell them if the badge falls off? If so why?).
I was interested in roof racks and cycle carriers. The first is a modification, the second isn’t (even the chatbot had never heard of them). Roof racks, to me, are an odd one. If the rails are on the car when delivered then putting cross bars on (which can also be supplied as a factory option(!)) doesn’t seem much of a modification - particularly as certain loads could be carried without them…Some of the rear window cycle carriers on the other hand, don’t look particularly safe. Trailers are seemingly not modifications, so I think I can reasonably discount a towbar mounted cycle carrier irrespective of the above (the towbar was factory fitted).
The ‘tints’ thread suggests that the police can make a point of checking the minutiae of individual policies (something I found a bit surprising). Any examples of ‘fishing’ for undeclared roof racks?
These, and quite a few older threads always get a number of posters asking questions about what might be classed as a modification, so I thought it might be interesting to see if anyone has actually fallen foul of anything unusual or unexpected (other than the PPF one we have all heard about).
My own policy (Quotemehappy) seems quite clear on mods only being after-market, but then comes up with a huge list of possibilities, many of which I have no idea what they mean (Does ‘Debadging’ mean you have to tell them if the badge falls off? If so why?).
I was interested in roof racks and cycle carriers. The first is a modification, the second isn’t (even the chatbot had never heard of them). Roof racks, to me, are an odd one. If the rails are on the car when delivered then putting cross bars on (which can also be supplied as a factory option(!)) doesn’t seem much of a modification - particularly as certain loads could be carried without them…Some of the rear window cycle carriers on the other hand, don’t look particularly safe. Trailers are seemingly not modifications, so I think I can reasonably discount a towbar mounted cycle carrier irrespective of the above (the towbar was factory fitted).
The ‘tints’ thread suggests that the police can make a point of checking the minutiae of individual policies (something I found a bit surprising). Any examples of ‘fishing’ for undeclared roof racks?
It never even occurred to me that a roof rack was a modification - I had roof bars on my Cayenne for years and never told anybody.
I do find some of these stories about invalid insurance because you had the wrong windscreen wipers etc. a tad hard to believe. I've had a couple of accidents in the past - I was there when one assessor went over the car, and they barely even looked at it. In fact - due to a registration swap between two of my cars the day before (which the insurers had been made aware of) - he even thought he was looking at the "other" car and didn't seem to care that the "wrong" car had been in an accident.
My last claim was total loss - I didn't tell my insurers my car had PPF until making the claim when I used it as an argument for the excellent condition of the car. They didn't suddenly invalidate my claim.
Insurers should be told of clear modifications, but I do think a pinch of salt is needed with some of the stories we see on here.
I do find some of these stories about invalid insurance because you had the wrong windscreen wipers etc. a tad hard to believe. I've had a couple of accidents in the past - I was there when one assessor went over the car, and they barely even looked at it. In fact - due to a registration swap between two of my cars the day before (which the insurers had been made aware of) - he even thought he was looking at the "other" car and didn't seem to care that the "wrong" car had been in an accident.
My last claim was total loss - I didn't tell my insurers my car had PPF until making the claim when I used it as an argument for the excellent condition of the car. They didn't suddenly invalidate my claim.
Insurers should be told of clear modifications, but I do think a pinch of salt is needed with some of the stories we see on here.
It's a nightmare and that come from someone who has worked for Insurers in the past. In general if you are middle aged with a good driving and insurance record adding roof racks and towbar, you'll be treated differently to a teenager with boy racer mods.
I think the key here is the language used by Insurers - most used something along the line of "has the vehicle been modified from the manufacturers standard specification?" So I would take that to mean a plain bog standard model of car you are trying to insure - ie a Ford Fiesta ST2. Obviously if you add upgraded 19 inch alloys or a Performance Pack, then that car can be considered to be modified. Of course there will be some Insurers that consider factory fitted options as non- modified.
Certainly some lower end Insurers such as Admiral and Hastings are far more strict on mods and claims. Admiral Group have their dreaded Standard Parts Replacement Clause where you can declare mods and pay an additional premium to ensure your overall insurance cover is not cancelled, but in the event of the claim they will only pay for a standard part - so let's say you have a Ford Fiesta Bonus that comes with 15" alloys as standard. You decide to add 19" ST alloys and pay Admiral £100 additional premium. You have a crash and one of the alloys is bucked. Admiral are within their rights to only give you a standard 15" alloy or cash equivalent.
I think the key here is the language used by Insurers - most used something along the line of "has the vehicle been modified from the manufacturers standard specification?" So I would take that to mean a plain bog standard model of car you are trying to insure - ie a Ford Fiesta ST2. Obviously if you add upgraded 19 inch alloys or a Performance Pack, then that car can be considered to be modified. Of course there will be some Insurers that consider factory fitted options as non- modified.
Certainly some lower end Insurers such as Admiral and Hastings are far more strict on mods and claims. Admiral Group have their dreaded Standard Parts Replacement Clause where you can declare mods and pay an additional premium to ensure your overall insurance cover is not cancelled, but in the event of the claim they will only pay for a standard part - so let's say you have a Ford Fiesta Bonus that comes with 15" alloys as standard. You decide to add 19" ST alloys and pay Admiral £100 additional premium. You have a crash and one of the alloys is bucked. Admiral are within their rights to only give you a standard 15" alloy or cash equivalent.
There are certainly some grey areas depending on the Insurer but by and large if the original car could have been specced with the item in question from the factory then it’s not a mod.
Dealer supplied and fitted can be one of those grey areas but as long as you are honest with the Insurer it shouldn’t be an issue.
Obviously used cars not so simple but again honesty is quite literally the best policy.
Insurance should be about utmost good faith so if doubt declare what you are concerned about.
Dealer supplied and fitted can be one of those grey areas but as long as you are honest with the Insurer it shouldn’t be an issue.
Obviously used cars not so simple but again honesty is quite literally the best policy.
Insurance should be about utmost good faith so if doubt declare what you are concerned about.
Foss62 said:
I was interested in roof racks and cycle carriers. The first is a modification, the second isn’t (even the chatbot had never heard of them). Roof racks, to me, are an odd one. If the rails are on the car when delivered then putting cross bars on (which can also be supplied as a factory option(!)) doesn’t seem much of a modification - particularly as certain loads could be carried without them…Some of the rear window cycle carriers on the other hand, don’t look particularly safe. Trailers are seemingly not modifications, so I think I can reasonably discount a towbar mounted cycle carrier irrespective of the above (the towbar was factory fitted).
Thats interesting. I wonder what the take is on Tentboxes which are becoming more popular. Maybe they are classed as a temporary mod.My only experience of a modification was a remap and A-Plan were not interested unless it went over 200bhp (it was a Saab 9-3).
i guess there are modifications and accessories and no clear line as to what is where.
To me an accessory is designed to be removed and refitted quickly and easily, it is not in place of or altering an existing component as per the example roof bars, floor mats, roof tents, suction cup/hook based cycle carriers, dash cams that use a usb/12v socket
anything that replaces a component or requires one to be altered is a modification as even if if its removed it will leave the original vehicle changed so hard wired dash cams, speakers, wheels etc. Wraps and ppf would fall foul of "quickly and easily" as they are time consuming to both apply and removed, they are also cannot be refitted once removed.
or in human terms, a tshirt is an accessory, a piercing or tattoo is a modification
To me an accessory is designed to be removed and refitted quickly and easily, it is not in place of or altering an existing component as per the example roof bars, floor mats, roof tents, suction cup/hook based cycle carriers, dash cams that use a usb/12v socket
anything that replaces a component or requires one to be altered is a modification as even if if its removed it will leave the original vehicle changed so hard wired dash cams, speakers, wheels etc. Wraps and ppf would fall foul of "quickly and easily" as they are time consuming to both apply and removed, they are also cannot be refitted once removed.
or in human terms, a tshirt is an accessory, a piercing or tattoo is a modification
DaveCWK said:
Surely roof racks & cycle carriers don't count as declarable modifications. Internet would be awash with stories of void insurance if so.
Absurd isn’t it. I use both and I don’t declare them - they’re only on when being used anyway. And that’s me - I’m very particular about full disclosure with insurers. These days I’m surprised insurers even look at cars - in 2016 I wrote off my five month old E class coupe. It was held in a compound just up the road from me (which was handy). Insurance company were emailed some photos and that was that. Literally days afterward it was taken away by copart.
DaveCWK said:
Surely roof racks & cycle carriers don't count as declarable modifications. Internet would be awash with stories of void insurance if so.
That tends to be my view, but the motoring sections of the Sunday papers (and many PH contributors) seem to be particularly hot on this one in particular. If it’s an urban myth, it’s a strong one - and as mentioned ‘roof rack’ is one of the many possible ‘modifications’ on the tick box list of possible ‘changes’ you might want to make to your cover on my current insurers website.Some of the others are even more bizarre. I already mentioned ‘de-badging’, but ‘upgraded wipers’ was another listing.
“I’m sorry we are not paying your claim and the police are going to prosecute for no insurance because we found that the ‘L’ of ‘GL’ had dropped off and when you last replaced your wiper blades you went for the Halfords ‘deluxe’ ones at £20.”
Essentially they want to insure Mr Average and not an enthusiast, particularly if the enthusiast has fitted something that's now unobtainable, making a minor accident into an argument / write off
I have a Trade policy and many modified cars, I've agreed, in the event of a claim they can just pay me the OEM replacement cost as that makes it simple
If you ask a "call handler" anything it seems to result in a "No" or a premium hike - see previous thread when someone had painted their wheels and had their insurance cancelled
Just use common sense and be grateful there is an ombudsman in case of a dispute
I have a Trade policy and many modified cars, I've agreed, in the event of a claim they can just pay me the OEM replacement cost as that makes it simple
If you ask a "call handler" anything it seems to result in a "No" or a premium hike - see previous thread when someone had painted their wheels and had their insurance cancelled
Just use common sense and be grateful there is an ombudsman in case of a dispute
davek_964 said:
It never even occurred to me that a roof rack was a modification - I had roof bars on my Cayenne for years and never told anybody.
It clearly isn’t: it is an accessory. The FOS would laugh an insurer out of the room if they tried this, although I (reasonably) confident that they would not. Doofus said:
I recently had a custom stainless exhaust built because the manufacturer cannot supply an OEM one.
It meets manufacturer's spec as closely as was possible and it increaed the annual premium by 10%.
To say I'm seething is an understatement.
I'd suggest that is no more a modification than fitting a cheap aftermarket part instead of OEM - I wouldn't have notified them unless it was a performance versionIt meets manufacturer's spec as closely as was possible and it increaed the annual premium by 10%.
To say I'm seething is an understatement.
KTMsm said:
I'd suggest that is no more a modification than fitting a cheap aftermarket part instead of OEM - I wouldn't have notified them unless it was a performance version
My wife was a motor insurance fraud lawyer for many years, and knows how insurers behave over stuff like this. It's effectively her car, and she asked me to call them.Doofus said:
I recently had a custom stainless exhaust built because the manufacturer cannot supply an OEM one.
It meets manufacturer's spec as closely as was possible and it increaed the annual premium by 10%.
To say I'm seething is an understatement.
I had this exact thing - needed a new exhaust on my old SLK and a bespoke stainless system (not done for performance etc) was half the price of OE. Asked my insurers - wanted an extra £365 on a £300 policy!It meets manufacturer's spec as closely as was possible and it increaed the annual premium by 10%.
To say I'm seething is an understatement.
Call centre girl insisted that even if it was an exhaust from Kwik Fit it’d be notifiable as a mod. No common sense could be applied.
For common sense I now just use my own judgement.
Dog Star said:
I had this exact thing - needed a new exhaust on my old SLK and a bespoke stainless system (not done for performance etc) was half the price of OE. Asked my insurers - wanted an extra £365 on a £300 policy!
Call centre girl insisted that even if it was an exhaust from Kwik Fit it’d be notifiable as a mod. No common sense could be applied.
For common sense I now just use my own judgement.
there's one of the issues right there. A few years ago some clown tried to tell me 'heated seats' were a mod - in fact any deviation from a base spec model was to be declared as modified.Call centre girl insisted that even if it was an exhaust from Kwik Fit it’d be notifiable as a mod. No common sense could be applied.
For common sense I now just use my own judgement.
The stuff about the exhaust is quite unbelievable tbh. If you sold your SLK to someone else how on earth would they know if something is non-standard or not?
shed driver said:
Some of the classic car policies are a minefield too. They allow up to 5 modifications - electronic ignition, upgraded cooling fan, updated stereo - all of which could be seen as "essential" are classed as modifications.
SD.
My classics are on agreed value policies, and mods aren't an issue then.SD.
Doofus said:
I recently had a custom stainless exhaust built because the manufacturer cannot supply an OEM one.
It meets manufacturer's spec as closely as was possible and it increaed the annual premium by 10%.
To say I'm seething is an understatement.
I didn't like the ride of my Karoq with 19" alloys (OEM) & tyres so I changed them for OEM Skoda 17" rims & tyres; I thought I'd better check with my insurer (Aviva) & despite my explaining that the 17" wheels & tyres would be cheaper to replace they raised my insurance premium. I was really pissed off & it demonstrates that it's all just about screwing more out of motorists & nothing to do with any actual increased risk.It meets manufacturer's spec as closely as was possible and it increaed the annual premium by 10%.
To say I'm seething is an understatement.
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