Out of Warranty failure - Fitness for Purpose/Quality

[bltamil1]

Hi All,

I am having a bit of a battle with a manufacturer following complete engine failure on my car a few weeks ago. Without going into all the details, it was purchased new 4 years and 68,000 miles ago so is 'out of warranty'. I have suggested to them that a total engine failure after 4 years does not show suitable quality or fitness for purpose but they are having none of it. It doesn't reflect very well on what is supposed to be a 'premium' brand, but there you go.

I think the failure is oil pump related (or at least oil pump drive related) but can't tell for sure, as the dealership (understandably) are not interested in stripping the engine down to determine the failure, and won't let me take the old engine away to do so myself. I'm stuck in a position where the manufacturer has diagnosed the fault and provided a cost to replace the engine (£14k) and then offered to pay 50% of it as a gesture of goodwill, provided that I have their dealer carry out the work... Hobson's choice!


Does anyone have any similar experience that could recommend an appropriate legal firm to take up such a case?

[Muzzer79]

bltamil1 said:

Without going into all the details, it was purchased new 4 years and 68,000 miles ago so is 'out of warranty'. I have suggested to them that a total engine failure after 4 years does not show suitable quality or fitness for purpose but they are having none of it.

I sympathise with your situation, genuinely, but have two questions

1. Why did you not extend the warranty past 3 years, knowing that said warranty ran out?

2. How long and how many miles do you think an engine should be covered by the manufacturer for, given that 4 years and nearly 70,000 miles isn't enough in your view?

[No ideas for a name]

bltamil1 said:

..... the dealership (understandably) are not interested in stripping the engine down to determine the failure, and won't let me take the old engine away to do so myself.

Assuming you are willing to pay any costs that the dealer has incurred so far (if any) - on what basis are they holding the vehicle?

[Wacky Racer]

I would accept their offer personally.

Maybe if it had only done 10,000 miles.

Good luck anyhow.

[Mammasaid]

Muzzer79 said:

bltamil1 said:

Without going into all the details, it was purchased new 4 years and 68,000 miles ago so is 'out of warranty'. I have suggested to them that a total engine failure after 4 years does not show suitable quality or fitness for purpose but they are having none of it.

I sympathise with your situation, genuinely, but have two questions

1. Why did you not extend the warranty past 3 years, knowing that said warranty ran out?

2. How long and how many miles do you think an engine should be covered by the manufacturer for, given that 4 years and nearly 70,000 miles isn't enough in your view?

The CRA say that you're partially wrong on point 2, you have up to 6 years - If the goods do not last a reasonable length of time you
may be entitled to some money back.

However getting the supplier to play ball however...

Oh, and let me guess - JLR?

https://www.tradingstandards.uk/media/documents/pr...

[bltamil1]

No ideas for a name said:

bltamil1 said:

..... the dealership (understandably) are not interested in stripping the engine down to determine the failure, and won't let me take the old engine away to do so myself.

Assuming you are willing to pay any costs that the dealer has incurred so far (if any) - on what basis are they holding the vehicle?

Sorry, should have been clearer. They are not holding the car, but wont allow me to take the old engine away for investigation as the new one is on an exchange basis (not mentioned at the time of agreeing the price).

I should say that the actual dealership have been fine, it's a battle with the manufacturer over the cost of the replacement (which I suppose the dealer is linked to).

[bltamil1]

Mammasaid said:

Muzzer79 said:

bltamil1 said:

Without going into all the details, it was purchased new 4 years and 68,000 miles ago so is 'out of warranty'. I have suggested to them that a total engine failure after 4 years does not show suitable quality or fitness for purpose but they are having none of it.

I sympathise with your situation, genuinely, but have two questions

1. Why did you not extend the warranty past 3 years, knowing that said warranty ran out?

2. How long and how many miles do you think an engine should be covered by the manufacturer for, given that 4 years and nearly 70,000 miles isn't enough in your view?

The CRA say that you're partially wrong on point 2, you have up to 6 years - If the goods do not last a reasonable length of time you
may be entitled to some money back.

However getting the supplier to play ball however...

Oh, and let me guess - JLR?

https://www.tradingstandards.uk/media/documents/pr...

Obviously we will all have different views on how long an engine should last (and I accept that I MAY be being unreasonable in my expectations) but I would have said that 4 years and 68,000 miles is NOT enough. Car is not exotic (although is expensive) and has been maintained and serviced by the supplying dealer since new.

Not JLR, and is a brand that I have previously associated with both reliability and good customer service. Not so much at the moment...

[OutInTheShed]

We don't expect engines to fail at 4 years and 68k miles.
But from a 'quality' perspective, it's not unreasonable that a very small percentage fail early.
If big numbers were dying young, that would be a quality or design issue.

Is it a high performance engine?
Has the maintenance been beyond criticism?

If you want someone else to take responsibility, buy something with a long warranty, or extend the warranty

[Muzzer79]

bltamil1 said:

Obviously we will all have different views on how long an engine should last (and I accept that I MAY be being unreasonable in my expectations) but I would have said that 4 years and 68,000 miles is NOT enough. Car is not exotic (although is expensive) and has been maintained and serviced by the supplying dealer since new.

So how long and how many miles?

I'm not being pedantic, it's a question you'll have to answer should you go legal.

Also, why not extend the warranty? Did you think that the manufacturer would cover your costs on the basis of the above - that major components should last longer?

[OutInTheShed]

Mammasaid said:

The CRA say that you're partially wrong on point 2, you have up to 6 years - If the goods do not last a reasonable length of time you
may be entitled to some money back.

However getting the supplier to play ball however...

Oh, and let me guess - JLR?

https://www.tradingstandards.uk/media/documents/pr...

The CRA doesn't say 'you have 6 years', itsays you may have some rights for a period of 'up to 6 years'.

6 years average use for a car in the UK is less than 68k miles.


£14k for an 'exchange' engine sounds very top heavy.
I'd get some other quotes.

[alscar]

I feel for you and agree that 4 years old is not excessive obviously although the mileage is slightly more than average but that shouldn’t make a huge difference.
However you could have extended the warranty but chose not to.
As such I think their offer of 50% is actually reasonably decent but clearly you should use that as a start point in negotiating for a bigger contribution.
Clearly going legal is an option but if it were me I’d be trying for at least 75% contribution first.
I think expecting 100% is possibly unrealistic.
Good luck.

[Muzzer79]

OutInTheShed said:

£14k for an 'exchange' engine sounds very top heavy.
I'd get some other quotes.

Depends on the manufacturer and the car.

[bltamil1]

OutInTheShed said:

We don't expect engines to fail at 4 years and 68k miles.
But from a 'quality' perspective, it's not unreasonable that a very small percentage fail early.
If big numbers were dying young, that would be a quality or design issue.

Is it a high performance engine?
Has the maintenance been beyond criticism?

If you want someone else to take responsibility, buy something with a long warranty, or extend the warranty

Not a performance engine, and been maintained by the franchised dealer since new.

I didn’t take out an extended warranty as I simply did not expect such a catastrophic failure at 4 years old, clearly I was wrong.

[bltamil1]

Muzzer79 said:

So how long and how many miles?

I'm not being pedantic, it's a question you'll have to answer should you go legal.

Also, why not extend the warranty? Did you think that the manufacturer would cover your costs on the basis of the above - that major components should last longer?

With modern manufacturing and tolerances, I would expect the mech parts of an engine to last 150,000 maybe 200,000 miles, wouldn’t you?

I’m not suggesting that a manufacturer should replace everything than expired before then of course as a car is likely to suffer significant mistreatment as it gets older, but a car maintained by franchised dealer from new should last longer than 4 years before a fundamental component fails.

I didn’t buy an extended warranty as it simply wasn’t in my contemplation that the engine would be scrap within four years…

[48k]

Let me guess - Land Rover with a TDV6 engine with bottom end bearing failure?

[silentbrown]

bltamil1 said:

With modern manufacturing and tolerances, I would expect the mech parts of an engine to last 150,000 maybe 200,000 miles, wouldn’t you?

Yes. And your 68K is roughly 35 to 45% of that life, so an offer of 50% isn't *that* unreasonable.

[BertBert]

So the manufacturer is taking some responsibility and offering to pay half. It might not be what you want OP, but it's not entirely unreasonable.

If you are expecting 100% free engine after that time and 70k miles that I think is unreasonable.

[OutInTheShed]

bltamil1 said:

With modern manufacturing and tolerances, I would expect the mech parts of an engine to last 150,000 maybe 200,000 miles, wouldn’t you?

I’m not suggesting that a manufacturer should replace everything than expired before then of course as a car is likely to suffer significant mistreatment as it gets older, but a car maintained by franchised dealer from new should last longer than 4 years before a fundamental component fails.

I didn’t buy an extended warranty as it simply wasn’t in my contemplation that the engine would be scrap within four years…

The word 'expect' has particular meaning in relation to stats.
And quality is all about stats.

If the 'expectation value' of the life of an engine is 150k miles, then you'd 'expect' a certain proportion to fail at 75k miles and a similar number to last 300k miles

How many engines does a manufacturer replace under warranty? The answer is generally not zero.

I think we've grown complacent, we are pretty used to seeing medium sized cars with ordinary engines doing 200k miles, it's become the norm, but that doesn't make it guaranteed.
There are a lot of 'out of warranty' cars which are relatively high value. Stuff can go bang and you've got an expensive pile of scrap.

If you drive cars out of warranty, you are to some extent gambling. Maybe 1% of cars will fail expensively in relation to their value. I had one about 15 years ago. Cooling system failed, cracked the block. Once in your driving career, you may have to cope with that, but it's galling when driving a 6 year old car costs more than if you'd had something newer under warranty. Averaged over 40 years of various vehicles I've done OK though.

Back in the day of course, my Dad changed the engines in more than one car and scrapped at least one which blew up before it rusted away.

[Sheepshanks]

If you could get an opinion from someone like the AA / RAC or some other independent body, that the engine should have lasted more than 4yrs/68K miles then you could take action against the supplying dealer, and handily the amount is under the £10K small claims limit.

Bit of a nuclear option against the dealer though, and you might not win.

The percentage based on lifetime might carry some weight, but most people wouldn't expect to spend anything on an engine during their ownership.

[bltamil1]

OutInTheShed said:

The CRA doesn't say 'you have 6 years', itsays you may have some rights for a period of 'up to 6 years'.

6 years average use for a car in the UK is less than 68k miles.


£14k for an 'exchange' engine sounds very top heavy.
I'd get some other quotes.

The dealer has fitted a new ‘crate’ engine, but won’t let me have the old one as that has to go back to the manufacturer. I suspect this is to avoid the possibility of me finding out what actually went wrong with it…

The cost is part of my point really. Charging double the going rate and then offering a 50% discount is a bit smoke and mirrors! The actual cost of parts won’t be that much, and it’s three days at the dealers to change it,