Do I need a compo face?
Discussion
In the event that they did have CCTV (Have you looked in the store to see if any cameras covered this area?) it is probably unlikely that the camera would have had sufficient definition to ascertain whether the lady had placed it within reach of the little one.
In an ideal world the staff member would hold their hands up and admit fault, but clearly they're not that sort of person, and in the absence of any witnesses that are independent then you will struggle to prove that the worker was at fault.
Edit: If they do have a camera pointing at the area, I'd make some marked questions of them as to what has happened to the footage. An incident of this nature would normally cause people to make sure that the footage is safely stored for the area in question before and after.
If they exist, take pictures of the cameras and if possible, a picture of what it's Field of View might be. I'd then start down the pre-action protocol by writing to head office and putting them on notice that you are considering a claim for personal injury and have ascertained that there is a camera with evidence on it, and that the fact that the store manager is telling you it is missing leads you to believe that the member of staff WAS negligent. But you'll still have a bit of a crap-shoot in court if you took it that far. One would hope that they would settle quickly at that point though. Lots of If's however!
In an ideal world the staff member would hold their hands up and admit fault, but clearly they're not that sort of person, and in the absence of any witnesses that are independent then you will struggle to prove that the worker was at fault.
Edit: If they do have a camera pointing at the area, I'd make some marked questions of them as to what has happened to the footage. An incident of this nature would normally cause people to make sure that the footage is safely stored for the area in question before and after.
If they exist, take pictures of the cameras and if possible, a picture of what it's Field of View might be. I'd then start down the pre-action protocol by writing to head office and putting them on notice that you are considering a claim for personal injury and have ascertained that there is a camera with evidence on it, and that the fact that the store manager is telling you it is missing leads you to believe that the member of staff WAS negligent. But you'll still have a bit of a crap-shoot in court if you took it that far. One would hope that they would settle quickly at that point though. Lots of If's however!
Edited by Cyberprog on Tuesday 30th April 14:16
I think you will struggle to prove negligence here, also I doubt there is any training available on the reach of a tethered or untethered toddler in a high chair.
Maybe they believed the hot stuff was far enough away, or maybe no available space on the table was far enough away, though I’d have expected the staff to ask to put the onus back on yourselves.
Awful experience.
Maybe they believed the hot stuff was far enough away, or maybe no available space on the table was far enough away, though I’d have expected the staff to ask to put the onus back on yourselves.
Awful experience.
Hondashark said:
The solicitor has said to us that as it's now our word against theirs, and that is it as it's up to us to prove their negligence which without CCTV we can't.
Is that it though? It seems a bit unfair that they can just say "no we didn't injure her, prove it" and my daughter has to live with scars forever.
In my years on this planet, I've always found that when dealing with matters of law/compensation - it's best to listen to your solicitor. Is that it though? It seems a bit unfair that they can just say "no we didn't injure her, prove it" and my daughter has to live with scars forever.
If they say you don't have a case, listen to them.
I too would suggest that they would put the onus back on you as a parent to ensure that your child is safe, not on them as servers to ensure that things are out of reach.
Where would you of liked her to put the tea? Maybe keep the kids far enough away from the table they can't pull anything onto them? The person delivering the food/tea didn't spill it on the child - the child is your resposibility and up to you to keep them out of harms way..
Hope the little one recovers and feels better soon.
Hope the little one recovers and feels better soon.
Edited by MightyBadger on Tuesday 30th April 14:57
Edited by MightyBadger on Tuesday 30th April 15:01
I wish your daughter well, and although my post adds nothing to your angst, I've found Morrisons very lacklustre when it comes to Health and Safety.
My aunt just before christmas was visitng a store in the West midlands (I'm keeping this vague as its going through the courts ATM). This store uses a travelator to travel from one level to the next.
The travelator in question has a faulty sync between the moving floor and the handrail, meaning the hanrtail moves quicker than the floor. It has been reported to the store numerous times by different customers as a fault.
Now quite rightly you would say why not use the lifts? The lifts also break down regularly. On the day in question the lifts were out of order again.
The day in question my aunt was pulled from her feet to the floor breaking her hip, subsequently she was hospitalised. 4 weeks later after a catalouge of errors by the NHS trust she passed away.
The health and safety executive are involved and it is due to go to court in the next few months.
My aunt just before christmas was visitng a store in the West midlands (I'm keeping this vague as its going through the courts ATM). This store uses a travelator to travel from one level to the next.
The travelator in question has a faulty sync between the moving floor and the handrail, meaning the hanrtail moves quicker than the floor. It has been reported to the store numerous times by different customers as a fault.
Now quite rightly you would say why not use the lifts? The lifts also break down regularly. On the day in question the lifts were out of order again.
The day in question my aunt was pulled from her feet to the floor breaking her hip, subsequently she was hospitalised. 4 weeks later after a catalouge of errors by the NHS trust she passed away.
The health and safety executive are involved and it is due to go to court in the next few months.
Muzzer79 said:
I too would suggest that they would put the onus back on you as a parent to ensure that your child is safe, not on them as servers to ensure that things are out of reach.
It's a fair point:Hondashark said:
I saw the lady coming with the tea so I picked a couple of books that were in front of me so she could put the tray down and handed them to the Mrs. So when the woman arrived I was getting my 2 year old sat down and the Mrs putting the books away. The Mrs then shouted
It seems both parents were distracted by other things - OP was attending to another child and Mrs decided to put books away rather than move the teapot to a safe distance.I would file it under accident, it's just a shame someone got badly hurt.
Hondashark said:
Maybe there's 3/4 of a 4 seater table that a 1 year old can't reach. Maybe use one of those sections.
I'll come and put scolding water in reach of your 1 year old and when you shout at me I'll laugh at you and tell you to keep your own child safe.
It's an unfortunate accident. Restaurants are allowed to serve drinks at a temperature that would scold people and they don't have to consider infant children if the product is being sold to adults (see Bogle v Mcdonald's).I'll come and put scolding water in reach of your 1 year old and when you shout at me I'll laugh at you and tell you to keep your own child safe.
You're left with the server negligently leaving the hot drink in reach of your child, but I guess it' expected that between 2 parents there'd be supervision. FWIW I've had to children myself and I know how fast they can grab things and you and your family have my sympathy.
Craig f said:
The travelator in question has a faulty sync between the moving floor and the handrail, meaning the hanrtail moves quicker than the floor. It has been reported to the store numerous times by different customers as a fault.
Is that a fault? The 3 in my local Asda have always been like that.simon_harris said:
usually with your house insurance you have some legal cover, you can use that without fear of the cost to pursue this matter.
IME you can only use Legal cover on your insurance policy if they think you've a very good chance of winning. If they think it's a 50:50 they won't cover you.Hondashark said:
I don't know if anything else can be done as it seems slightly unfair.
Back in December I went to morrisons cafe with my 1 year old daughter and then 2 year old son. Ordered 2 pots of tea and some breakfasts.
1 year old was in the high chair and 2 year old playing with his cars. I saw the lady coming with the tea so I picked a couple of books that were in front of me so she could put the tray down and handed them to the Mrs. So when the woman arrived I was getting my 2 year old sat down and the Mrs putting the books away. The Mrs then shouted and I looked up just as my daughter was pulling one of the pots onto her lap as the tray had been put in the middle of the table, not directly infront of my daughter but then still within reach of a hooked finger of a 1 year old.
It peeled all the skin off one thigh, ended up with 5 staff helping us and phoning an ambulance. The ambulances were too busy so had to get her in the car take her to A&E. They then sent us to the specialist children's burns unit in a different hospital.
4 months later she's OK other than scarring which may or may not fade over the next few years.
The Mrs phoned the store the next day to speak to the store manager but she wasnt there so left her number. She then phoned the Mrs 2 days later and the Mrs gave her an update. 10 days after the incident I went in to speak to her to ask if there was any CCTV (there was none) and if we could have done anything different in her immediate first aid (gone through to the kitchen to use a tap etc.).
The Mrs then popped in with the kids a couple of days later to speak to her and by this point she seemed to be in the "oh well she'll live type of attitude".
It was at that point I thought stuff it and spoke to a solicitor recommend by my work union that deal in personal injury.
My main aim was to recoup the cost of 5 x 50 mile round trips to the burns unit, 5 lots of parking, loss of earning as I had to take time off work and the bloody breakfasts we never got. Then some recompense for my daughter which would go in her ISA (I think the going rate for a leg burn is about £10k)
The solicitor wrote to morriosons to ask if they accept liability and for a copy of the accident report.
They took an age to reply but their reply was that they had interviewed the staff member, she said she didn't put it close to my daughter so weren't accepting liability. Also there was no accident report, they didn't fill in the accident book as they didn't have our details. (Which is a s
te excuse given all the contact we had with the store manager. I would have thought the incident required a RIDDOR report).
The solicitor has said to us that as it's now our word against theirs, and that is it as it's up to us to prove their negligence which without CCTV we can't.
Is that it though? It seems a bit unfair that they can just say "no we didn't injure her, prove it" and my daughter has to live with scars forever.
I hate the idea of "going to the papers" and don't really see what it would achieve.
Seriously?Back in December I went to morrisons cafe with my 1 year old daughter and then 2 year old son. Ordered 2 pots of tea and some breakfasts.
1 year old was in the high chair and 2 year old playing with his cars. I saw the lady coming with the tea so I picked a couple of books that were in front of me so she could put the tray down and handed them to the Mrs. So when the woman arrived I was getting my 2 year old sat down and the Mrs putting the books away. The Mrs then shouted and I looked up just as my daughter was pulling one of the pots onto her lap as the tray had been put in the middle of the table, not directly infront of my daughter but then still within reach of a hooked finger of a 1 year old.
It peeled all the skin off one thigh, ended up with 5 staff helping us and phoning an ambulance. The ambulances were too busy so had to get her in the car take her to A&E. They then sent us to the specialist children's burns unit in a different hospital.
4 months later she's OK other than scarring which may or may not fade over the next few years.
The Mrs phoned the store the next day to speak to the store manager but she wasnt there so left her number. She then phoned the Mrs 2 days later and the Mrs gave her an update. 10 days after the incident I went in to speak to her to ask if there was any CCTV (there was none) and if we could have done anything different in her immediate first aid (gone through to the kitchen to use a tap etc.).
The Mrs then popped in with the kids a couple of days later to speak to her and by this point she seemed to be in the "oh well she'll live type of attitude".
It was at that point I thought stuff it and spoke to a solicitor recommend by my work union that deal in personal injury.
My main aim was to recoup the cost of 5 x 50 mile round trips to the burns unit, 5 lots of parking, loss of earning as I had to take time off work and the bloody breakfasts we never got. Then some recompense for my daughter which would go in her ISA (I think the going rate for a leg burn is about £10k)
The solicitor wrote to morriosons to ask if they accept liability and for a copy of the accident report.
They took an age to reply but their reply was that they had interviewed the staff member, she said she didn't put it close to my daughter so weren't accepting liability. Also there was no accident report, they didn't fill in the accident book as they didn't have our details. (Which is a s
te excuse given all the contact we had with the store manager. I would have thought the incident required a RIDDOR report).The solicitor has said to us that as it's now our word against theirs, and that is it as it's up to us to prove their negligence which without CCTV we can't.
Is that it though? It seems a bit unfair that they can just say "no we didn't injure her, prove it" and my daughter has to live with scars forever.
I hate the idea of "going to the papers" and don't really see what it would achieve.
Edited by Hondashark on Tuesday 30th April 13:52
It’s always someone else’s fault these days
Edited by 119 on Tuesday 30th April 15:49
Craig f said:
I wish your daughter well, and although my post adds nothing to your angst, I've found Morrisons very lacklustre when it comes to Health and Safety.
My aunt just before christmas was visitng a store in the West midlands (I'm keeping this vague as its going through the courts ATM). This store uses a travelator to travel from one level to the next.
The travelator in question has a faulty sync between the moving floor and the handrail, meaning the hanrtail moves quicker than the floor. It has been reported to the store numerous times by different customers as a fault.
Now quite rightly you would say why not use the lifts? The lifts also break down regularly. On the day in question the lifts were out of order again.
The day in question my aunt was pulled from her feet to the floor breaking her hip, subsequently she was hospitalised. 4 weeks later after a catalouge of errors by the NHS trust she passed away.
The health and safety executive are involved and it is due to go to court in the next few months.
I don't think I've ever travelled on a travelator/escalator that didn't have a slight speed difference between handrail and floor. Just requires a hand re-adjustment every 20 seconds or so.My aunt just before christmas was visitng a store in the West midlands (I'm keeping this vague as its going through the courts ATM). This store uses a travelator to travel from one level to the next.
The travelator in question has a faulty sync between the moving floor and the handrail, meaning the hanrtail moves quicker than the floor. It has been reported to the store numerous times by different customers as a fault.
Now quite rightly you would say why not use the lifts? The lifts also break down regularly. On the day in question the lifts were out of order again.
The day in question my aunt was pulled from her feet to the floor breaking her hip, subsequently she was hospitalised. 4 weeks later after a catalouge of errors by the NHS trust she passed away.
The health and safety executive are involved and it is due to go to court in the next few months.
Hondashark said:
MightyBadger said:
Where would you of liked her to put the tea? Maybe keep the kids far enough away from the table they can't pull anything onto them? The person delivering the food/tea didn't spill it on the child - the child is your resposibility.
Hope the little one recovers and feels better soon.
Maybe there's 3/4 of a 4 seater table that a 1 year old can't reach. Maybe use one of those sections.Hope the little one recovers and feels better soon.
Edited by MightyBadger on Tuesday 30th April 14:57
I'll come and put scolding water in reach of your 1 year old and when you shout at me I'll laugh at you and tell you to keep your own child safe.
Nobody is blaming you, merely pointing out that the child is your responsibility in this respect and not the server.
When I was small, my parents took me on holiday to Spain. On the plane journey over, a stewardess spilled hot coffee on me whilst she was serving someone next to me.
I was too young to remember it, but my parents recall even the pilot hearing my piercing scream.
But it was an accident - I lived.
I get that it's upsetting and I hope your child makes a full recovery.
OP. I hated reading this thread. Almost like a worst nightmare (well a very bad one at least). I have so much sympathy to you and your daughter - I really hope she heals as fully as possible.
Back to the incident. I think your solicitor might be right. It's impossible to prove negligence on the part of the waitress, regardless of cctv and camera positions etc. From reading your account, the greatest negligence (albeit completely unintentional) appears to be you and your mrs for doing things other than keeping the danger away from the child.
That's not a criticism by the way. I've been there as a parent to young ones not too long ago and we had some close shaves with disasters It's just life.
Once again, best of wishes.
Back to the incident. I think your solicitor might be right. It's impossible to prove negligence on the part of the waitress, regardless of cctv and camera positions etc. From reading your account, the greatest negligence (albeit completely unintentional) appears to be you and your mrs for doing things other than keeping the danger away from the child.
That's not a criticism by the way. I've been there as a parent to young ones not too long ago and we had some close shaves with disasters It's just life.
Once again, best of wishes.
oyster said:
I don't think I've ever travelled on a travelator/escalator that didn't have a slight speed difference between handrail and floor. Just requires a hand re-adjustment every 20 seconds or so.
https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,,-2094,00.htmlhttps://www.reddit.com/r/london/comments/132nuzl/w...
Certainly seems to be a common issue.
Hondashark said:
Maybe there's 3/4 of a 4 seater table that a 1 year old can't reach. Maybe use one of those sections.
I'll come and put scolding water in reach of your 1 year old and when you shout at me I'll laugh at you and tell you to keep your own child safe.
What are you on about? I wished your child a speedy recovery and hoped they feel better soon. I'll come and put scolding water in reach of your 1 year old and when you shout at me I'll laugh at you and tell you to keep your own child safe.
Did the server pour scalding water on your one year old? No, didn't think so. You failed to stop your child reaching scalding water. Bitter pill hard to swallow eh?
Take some responsibility?
Like another poster just said 'its always somebody elses fault these days'.
I have gone in a bit more harsh with this as you have just been a total bell end to me.
Difficult case and I am sorry to hear about your little one. Utter nightmare thing to happen.
I do think that the solicitor's experience carries weight here. In a different matter, I looked into negligence by a hospital that I believe resulted in my brother-in-laws death. I got the notes from the hospital, went through them, found various anomalies, and took it to a solicitor on a no win no fee basis. They probably spent minimum time compared to me, looking at it from their point of view - are we going to get anything out of it? I was not impressed by them at all, but then I held a very different stake in the situation and was hardly impartial. We took their advice that there would most likely be no case to answer, as it was something difficult if nigh on impossible to prove. You need to demonstrate what they, the supermarket, have done wrong.
Clearly there are lessons to learn and Morrisons have been less than spectacular with completing the accident record. I will expect that to have been completed and some form of follow up around 'what we as a supermarket could do do differently to prevent this happening again'.
Only you, your wife, and the staff member know precisely what happened and if there is adequate evidence to make a case. The regretful injury is not the evidence of wrong doing per se, but is a potential consequence.
I think all you can do to progress this is to take the matter to a no win no fee solicitor and get another opinion. It will not cost anything, plus you have the benefit of another pair of eyes being cast over the case.
I do think that the solicitor's experience carries weight here. In a different matter, I looked into negligence by a hospital that I believe resulted in my brother-in-laws death. I got the notes from the hospital, went through them, found various anomalies, and took it to a solicitor on a no win no fee basis. They probably spent minimum time compared to me, looking at it from their point of view - are we going to get anything out of it? I was not impressed by them at all, but then I held a very different stake in the situation and was hardly impartial. We took their advice that there would most likely be no case to answer, as it was something difficult if nigh on impossible to prove. You need to demonstrate what they, the supermarket, have done wrong.
Clearly there are lessons to learn and Morrisons have been less than spectacular with completing the accident record. I will expect that to have been completed and some form of follow up around 'what we as a supermarket could do do differently to prevent this happening again'.
Only you, your wife, and the staff member know precisely what happened and if there is adequate evidence to make a case. The regretful injury is not the evidence of wrong doing per se, but is a potential consequence.
I think all you can do to progress this is to take the matter to a no win no fee solicitor and get another opinion. It will not cost anything, plus you have the benefit of another pair of eyes being cast over the case.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff