Quick Comparison btw the UK and Europe
Discussion
I did around 1500 km in Europe over the course of last weekend. What a difference! Take the French - speed limits of 130km/h or 110km/h depending on the conditions. I travelled back from Le Mont St Michel to Calais at peak hour and the motorway was very busy. But what a surprise - the fast lane was going at 160kmh, the slow one was going at 130kmh. No erratic overtaking, no cutting up by numpties, no OAPs driving in the fast lane at 40kmh and no plod to pull people over for "speeding". Even the roadworks were designed to cause minimum disruption...
Are you surprised that I covered 500km in 4h on a busy motorway, including a "pit stop" for a sandwich and a quick visit to the john? :-)
And then Britain - It is 00:00am, the M20 is empty, bar a few lorries and the weather is dry. I have to be at work in at 7:00am on Monday so I decided to push the old BM a little...Next thing I realise is that I am being pulled over for doing 150kmh. Why??? Was I driving dangerously? Was there any traffic on the road? Were the conditions bad? No, even the plod admitted it! After about 15mins of discussions, during which I kept my head down, I was let off the hook. Fair credit to them for using their common sense, I also guess that the paperwork that would have involved my foreign number plates put them off a little bit too:-)
But then I have to ask the question what about if it was some other cop? What about if I was an ordinary brit with british number plates and thus vulnerable to speed cameras? I tought the Brits are the best users of common sense in the world, but I don't think I can hold that opinion anymore....
Are you surprised that I covered 500km in 4h on a busy motorway, including a "pit stop" for a sandwich and a quick visit to the john? :-)
And then Britain - It is 00:00am, the M20 is empty, bar a few lorries and the weather is dry. I have to be at work in at 7:00am on Monday so I decided to push the old BM a little...Next thing I realise is that I am being pulled over for doing 150kmh. Why??? Was I driving dangerously? Was there any traffic on the road? Were the conditions bad? No, even the plod admitted it! After about 15mins of discussions, during which I kept my head down, I was let off the hook. Fair credit to them for using their common sense, I also guess that the paperwork that would have involved my foreign number plates put them off a little bit too:-)
But then I have to ask the question what about if it was some other cop? What about if I was an ordinary brit with british number plates and thus vulnerable to speed cameras? I tought the Brits are the best users of common sense in the world, but I don't think I can hold that opinion anymore....
Having said that, the gendermerie have guns to play with, so they're trained not to simply point and shoot, with stuff like laser traps over here - it's one of the times that lowly coppers get to play with their form of gun!
See Bliar... arm our police - that way we'd have a lower crime rate (takes a scrote with balls to mug an old lady when he runs the risk of being shot where he stood!), more people wanting to join the police, greater public opinion of the police and generally a more effective force - of course, it might mean that you get less £££ from us law-abiding motorists, but the instances of traffic safety would rocket up (who wants to be chased by Bodie and Doyle in a T5, both packing 'nines' and a 12ga!)
(for all the police force personell etc, that was a rather tounge-in-cheek post!
)
See Bliar... arm our police - that way we'd have a lower crime rate (takes a scrote with balls to mug an old lady when he runs the risk of being shot where he stood!), more people wanting to join the police, greater public opinion of the police and generally a more effective force - of course, it might mean that you get less £££ from us law-abiding motorists, but the instances of traffic safety would rocket up (who wants to be chased by Bodie and Doyle in a T5, both packing 'nines' and a 12ga!)
(for all the police force personell etc, that was a rather tounge-in-cheek post!
)Whilst we are making comparisons with Europe how about Comparing road deaths, Britain has the lowest around 3,000 compared with 8,000 in france, (not exact figures for this year and sorry I don't have the figures for other countries), but it,s one of the facts which came out of a recent seminar I attended which was given by the head of TRL Transport Research Laboratory, they are the people who investigate the safety of vehicles/causes of accidents etc. They also produce the NCAP crash test results. In this guys opinion Britain has possibly got the safest roads in the world. Is this just luck or could it be connected with the fact that we do take an interest in enforcing Road Traffic legislation, looking at the layout and engineering of our roads, and improving vehicle safety by studying how vehicles react in accidents. TRL by the way is British but manufacturers worldwide use their expertise. Draw your own conclusions, But in GENERAL I think we have got it right, There are a few niggles but hey nothings perfect
Welcome back JR! Haven't seen a post from you in ages.
It would be very interesting to see an analysis of the proportion of road deaths caused directly by cars, and those caused by cars interacting with roadside furniture. Also analysis of accidents in relation to road surface, barriers, etc - in other words, are our roads designed to be safe - could we reduce road deaths further by re-designing roads to make them safer, and to accommodate the universally highter speeds we all move along at?
Does the overcrowding on our roads, coupled with (mostly) courteous driving, actually contribute to our lower death rate?
It would be very interesting to see an analysis of the proportion of road deaths caused directly by cars, and those caused by cars interacting with roadside furniture. Also analysis of accidents in relation to road surface, barriers, etc - in other words, are our roads designed to be safe - could we reduce road deaths further by re-designing roads to make them safer, and to accommodate the universally highter speeds we all move along at?
Does the overcrowding on our roads, coupled with (mostly) courteous driving, actually contribute to our lower death rate?
nubbin - as far as I was aware, TRL do crash tests with furniture such as armco, bridge support concrete etc. I'm sure John Robson will quantify this for sure, but I remember seeing a program about transport research and crash testing (not sure if it was for the NCAP tests or simply a TRL project) in which they threw articulated lorries and various small cars into varying grades of armco etc to judge what was best (read, safest) for the road system.
>> Edited by CB-Dave on Thursday 31st October 12:09
>> Edited by CB-Dave on Thursday 31st October 12:09
CB Dave the tests you saw are one and the same. Apparantly TRL don't just look at cars they look closly at road furniture as well. Which is why we have seen a lot of changes recently, ie traffic calming new designs for bridge supports etc. As nubbin points out re overcrowding, I'm sure this does have an effect, afterall it does slow people down, but on the otherhand it does increase frustration and contribute to 'road rage' incidents. But its all interesting stuff and I personally like to take the broader picture into account when looking at road safety. Not had much time to visit the site recently as I have been doing a bit of studdying, just waiting for the results at the moment.
john robson said: Whilst we are making comparisons with Europe how about Comparing road deaths, Britain has the lowest around 3,000 compared with 8,000 in france, (not exact figures for this year and sorry I don't have the figures for other countries), but it,s one of the facts which came out of a recent seminar I attended which was given by the head of TRL Transport Research Laboratory, they are the people who investigate the safety of vehicles/causes of accidents etc. They also produce the NCAP crash test results. In this guys opinion Britain has possibly got the safest roads in the world. Is this just luck or could it be connected with the fact that we do take an interest in enforcing Road Traffic legislation, looking at the layout and engineering of our roads, and improving vehicle safety by studying how vehicles react in accidents. TRL by the way is British but manufacturers worldwide use their expertise. Draw your own conclusions, But in GENERAL I think we have got it right, There are a few niggles but hey nothings perfect
John, I am afraid things are not that simple. Looking at the death toll on the road, Britain is one of the safest place to be, but then start looking at the number of injured people and the whole argument wobbles:
France (Year 2000):
Death on the road: 8,079
Injured: 121,223
Britain:
Death, around 3000 (you probably have the actual figures)
Injured: 242,117
Germany:
Injured: 382,949
(Source: Observatoire national interministériel de sécurité routière - Annual report)
Comparing death and injuries is not really appropriate. Swaping 5,000 deaths for 121,000 is the Devil's business. However, I know that if I have the choice I would rather drive in France. The probability of having an accident are half that of the UK. However, if I do have an accident, the chances of being killed are twice as high.
By any stretch of the imagination, Britain is not in a position to give any lesson in terms of road safety. Continental roads are safer, better and - yes - faster, and anyone who's driven on Continental roads will understand this.
Cheers
Roms
PS: PHers who can read French will certainly find this article very informative - credit where credit's due, Thom is the one who sent me a copy in the first place.
www.liberation.com/page.php?Article=55095
>> Edited by rthierry on Thursday 31st October 13:32
apache said: welcome back jr. How much faith do you put in these 'statistics' is that data per capita for instance? Stats can be used in many ways, a huge proportion of deaths in this country are in Hospitals, maybe they are dangerous
Per capita is not the issue here: GB and France have roughly the same population. Density on the other hand is much lower in France. Also, France has fewer motorways than GB but far more 'B' roads - overall there 2.5 more kilometers of paved road in France than in GB.
I agree statistics can always be argued upon. My only point is that claiming a country/road is safe looking only at the number of deaths is misleading.
JR I think the point was also that French road users appear to use the motorways more sensibly. I entirely agree with that. It's something we ought to look at addressing my means of such simple measures as pubic service broadcasts instructing Gerald and Maureen Vectra that the left hand lane is the place to be on a motorway unless overtaking (or - briefly - making way for joining traffic. Staying in the middle lane all the time out of laziness/so that a driver doesn't have to think so much is simply unacceptable and costs the economy squillions.
rthierry said:
apache said: welcome back jr. How much faith do you put in these 'statistics' is that data per capita for instance? Stats can be used in many ways, a huge proportion of deaths in this country are in Hospitals, maybe they are dangerous
Per capita is not the issue here: GB and France have roughly the same population. Density on the other hand is much lower in France. Also, France has fewer motorways than GB but far more 'B' roads - overall there 2.5 more kilometers of paved road in France than in GB.
I agree statistics can always be argued upon. My only point is that claiming a country/road is safe looking only at the number of deaths is misleading.
I think you've hit the nail on the head there, the traffic is a hell of a lot denser (in both meanings of the word) in the UK. I prefer driving in France, Germany, Holland and even Finland than the UK, there's something in the psyche of a Brit behind the wheel that makes him take everything personally and to always be competitvely aggressive
I note the figures for the injured in france but they don't seem to have the same 'compensation culture' that we seem to have adopted from the states. This, to me appears to account for a large majority of the injuries that we get reported in our stats. Every time I go to an RTA, no matter how minor some joker is always stood there holding their neck and complaing of whiplash.
I've been comparing data in casualty trends with information about road traffic policing, and those countries with "speed kills" attitudes are the same ones who aren't improving their casualty stats!
data from
www.roadmc.com/
and
www.bast.de/htdocs/fachthemen/irtad//utility/p69.pdf
SPEED KILLS COUNTRIES:
Australia:
Casualties not falling
Switzerland:
Casualties not falling
Belgium
Casualties rising
Finland
Casualties not falling
Great Britain
Casualties not falling
Netherlands
Casualties not falling
Norway
Casualties rising
Sweden
Casualties rising
SPEED DOESN'T KILL COUNTRIES
Spain:
Casualties not falling
Germany
Casualties falling
France
Casualties falling
Austria
Casualties falling
Italy
Casualties falling
COUNTRIES WITH UNKNOWN POLICIES
Ireland
Luxembourg
Portugal
The evidence is pretty compelling...
Best Regards,
Paul Smith
www.safespeed.org.uk
data from
www.roadmc.com/
and
www.bast.de/htdocs/fachthemen/irtad//utility/p69.pdf
SPEED KILLS COUNTRIES:
Australia:
Casualties not falling
Switzerland:
Casualties not falling
Belgium
Casualties rising
Finland
Casualties not falling
Great Britain
Casualties not falling
Netherlands
Casualties not falling
Norway
Casualties rising
Sweden
Casualties rising
SPEED DOESN'T KILL COUNTRIES
Spain:
Casualties not falling
Germany
Casualties falling
France
Casualties falling
Austria
Casualties falling
Italy
Casualties falling
COUNTRIES WITH UNKNOWN POLICIES
Ireland
Luxembourg
Portugal
The evidence is pretty compelling...
Best Regards,
Paul Smith
www.safespeed.org.uk
Simple, the UK sucks. I prefer this side of the water (Germany). About 8 weeks ago I drove from Frankfurt to Glasgow, everything was fine until I got to Dover! It was torture driving a fast car through the UK. As soon as you hit UK soil the standard of driving takes a nose dive! No where is perfect, but the UK is certainly further from perfect than many countries over here.
Deester...
Deester...
Staying in the middle lane all the time out of laziness/so that a driver doesn't have to think so much is simply unacceptable and costs the economy squillions.
Exactly. There is no way in the world we can persuade
the UK Gov to build more motorways, because that costs
money - eg 100 million quid for ten miles of the M25 to be widened.
Why not make better use of existing motorways ?
Much cheaper, and will wake up Gerald & Maureen about
their skills shortage.
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