Advice on dispute with used car dealer
Discussion
My partner bought a car from a very well known online car seller about 5 months ago which has now started intermittently throwing up various electrical faults (spurious warning lights, going into limp mode, tachometer going haywire, failing to start, etc.).
She only got a 90 day warranty but obviously CRA 2015 states that within 6 months of purchase the fault is assumed to have been there at the point of sale unless the seller can prove otherwise. So the onus is on the seller to provide this proof but what does one do when you don't agree with their proof?
The dealer has stated that as the car was (apparently) showing no diagnostic fault codes when sold and had passed all of their other pre-sale checks then that constitutes evidence the fault didn't exist at the time. As such they are now basically ignoring us completely, not returning calls or replying to emails.
What defines "proof" in this situation? There were various other faults with the car in the first few months which were evidently also not picked up and which they did acknowledge existed so clearly their checks are fallible.
She only got a 90 day warranty but obviously CRA 2015 states that within 6 months of purchase the fault is assumed to have been there at the point of sale unless the seller can prove otherwise. So the onus is on the seller to provide this proof but what does one do when you don't agree with their proof?
The dealer has stated that as the car was (apparently) showing no diagnostic fault codes when sold and had passed all of their other pre-sale checks then that constitutes evidence the fault didn't exist at the time. As such they are now basically ignoring us completely, not returning calls or replying to emails.
What defines "proof" in this situation? There were various other faults with the car in the first few months which were evidently also not picked up and which they did acknowledge existed so clearly their checks are fallible.
T0MMY said:
My partner bought a car from a very well known online car seller about 5 months ago which has now started intermittently throwing up various electrical faults (spurious warning lights, going into limp mode, tachometer going haywire, failing to start, etc.).
Presuming ICE car,I had one that did all sorts intermittently, engine codes, even swapped between revs hanging & climbing with foot off pedal and stalling at idle, had to change gear to drop revs or left foot brake and hold revs high at lights when stalling after putting up with it for a bit, cleaned inside the battery clamps and terminal poles that had slight green build up, grounds where bolted to clamps and frame, and it worked fine. Could also possibly be an issue with alternator voltage regulator, varying voltage making it go haywire, and everything going made and not starting.
Have a look for corrosion at the battery terminal, inbetween battery pole and the clamp too, esp if green build up, and ground wires, alternator could also have it where voltage regulator is bolted into the side of it too.
Not likely what you want to do, but if quick DIY can solve it, its easier.
Edited by NFT on Monday 26th February 23:11
T0MMY said:
My partner bought a car from a very well known online car seller about 5 months ago which has now started intermittently throwing up various electrical faults (spurious warning lights, going into limp mode, tachometer going haywire, failing to start, etc.).
She only got a 90 day warranty but obviously CRA 2015 states that within 6 months of purchase the fault is assumed to have been there at the point of sale unless the seller can prove otherwise. So the onus is on the seller to provide this proof but what does one do when you don't agree with their proof?
The dealer has stated that as the car was (apparently) showing no diagnostic fault codes when sold and had passed all of their other pre-sale checks then that constitutes evidence the fault didn't exist at the time. As such they are now basically ignoring us completely, not returning calls or replying to emails.
What defines "proof" in this situation? There were various other faults with the car in the first few months which were evidently also not picked up and which they did acknowledge existed so clearly their checks are fallible.
1. Prove there is a faultShe only got a 90 day warranty but obviously CRA 2015 states that within 6 months of purchase the fault is assumed to have been there at the point of sale unless the seller can prove otherwise. So the onus is on the seller to provide this proof but what does one do when you don't agree with their proof?
The dealer has stated that as the car was (apparently) showing no diagnostic fault codes when sold and had passed all of their other pre-sale checks then that constitutes evidence the fault didn't exist at the time. As such they are now basically ignoring us completely, not returning calls or replying to emails.
What defines "proof" in this situation? There were various other faults with the car in the first few months which were evidently also not picked up and which they did acknowledge existed so clearly their checks are fallible.
2. Prove that the fault was present at the point of sale
If you have undertaken comprehensive pre delivery checks and have kept good records of those checks, you will have made it very difficult for the consumer to prove the fault (hyperlink) was there at the point of sale.
It is obviously up to you how much time you want to put into your pre-delivery procedures but we would recommend you:
• Put a new MOT on each vehicle you sell
• Complete a Pre-Delivery Checklist
• Get the customer to sign to say there were no apparent faults during the test drive
• Have the vehicle checked and/or serviced by an independent garage
• Take photos or even a video of the vehicle
SS427 Camaro said:
Hardly suprised they are ignoring you, I would too.
No need for this.OP - what you describe are symptoms of the fault. Could you take the car to another garage or main dealer to diagnose the actual fault?
Once you know the component that is faulty you can then decide if it could have been present at sale.
As mentioned above - a faulty battery can cause those symptoms. You could mention that to the dealer. Or for less hassle eliminate by replacing the battery yourself.
irish boy said:
If you bought the car less than 6 months ago, it’s up to the dealer to prove the fault wasn’t there at the time of sale. Not the other way round.
the car has been faultless for 5 months, no codes or issues. For the deale to need to prove it, they'd need to be taken to court and I'd hazard most courts would say 5 months conclusive those issues were not present at point of sale. Its not like OP suggested theyve progressed or got worse from day 1.andburg said:
irish boy said:
If you bought the car less than 6 months ago, it’s up to the dealer to prove the fault wasn’t there at the time of sale. Not the other way round.
the car has been faultless for 5 months, no codes or issues. For the deale to need to prove it, they'd need to be taken to court and I'd hazard most courts would say 5 months conclusive those issues were not present at point of sale. Its not like OP suggested theyve progressed or got worse from day 1.
T0MMY said:
My partner bought a car from a very well known online car seller about 5 months ago which has now started intermittently throwing up various electrical faults (spurious warning lights, going into limp mode, tachometer going haywire, failing to start, etc.).
Sounds like a battery. Does it do lots of short journeys? Batteries are more stressed in the winter months.As it would be a consumable, personally I would get a reasonable battery and try that.
It may be easier to just get the damned thing mended?
This could be a fairly simple fault like a crank position sensor. Or a wiring/connector problem.
A close friend had very similar symptoms from a car some years ago, cause by damp in some connectors.
It has rained a lot in the last month, at least on me!
How many miles has the car done since purchase?
If part of the purchase was paid by credit card, it may be worth a phone call to the card co.
As ever, think about what outcome you want. And can reasonably hope for.
Even if the dealer was forced to take this car back, they could make a stout deduction from the refund for the 5 months use of it.
Then you'd have to spend the next month looking for something better.
Possibly all because it needs a squirt of contralube in a connector?
This could be a fairly simple fault like a crank position sensor. Or a wiring/connector problem.
A close friend had very similar symptoms from a car some years ago, cause by damp in some connectors.
It has rained a lot in the last month, at least on me!
How many miles has the car done since purchase?
If part of the purchase was paid by credit card, it may be worth a phone call to the card co.
As ever, think about what outcome you want. And can reasonably hope for.
Even if the dealer was forced to take this car back, they could make a stout deduction from the refund for the 5 months use of it.
Then you'd have to spend the next month looking for something better.
Possibly all because it needs a squirt of contralube in a connector?
irish boy said:
andburg said:
irish boy said:
If you bought the car less than 6 months ago, it’s up to the dealer to prove the fault wasn’t there at the time of sale. Not the other way round.
the car has been faultless for 5 months, no codes or issues. For the deale to need to prove it, they'd need to be taken to court and I'd hazard most courts would say 5 months conclusive those issues were not present at point of sale. Its not like OP suggested theyve progressed or got worse from day 1.T0MMY said:
The dealer has stated that as the car was (apparently) showing no diagnostic fault codes when sold and had passed all of their other pre-sale checks then that constitutes evidence the fault didn't exist at the time. As such they are now basically ignoring us completely, not returning calls or replying to emails.
OverSteery said:
T0MMY said:
The dealer has stated that as the car was (apparently) showing no diagnostic fault codes when sold and had passed all of their other pre-sale checks then that constitutes evidence the fault didn't exist at the time. As such they are now basically ignoring us completely, not returning calls or replying to emails.
A Land Rover product will break down eventually because of the crapitude designed into it. I woud not expect that to be covered.
A gearbox fails after 3 months because it's been low on oil for the last 5 years. That should be covered.
What the OP reports could be a minor component failing through time, or it could be an effect of what the driver has done (e.g. drove it through excessive water). Or it could be a failure in maintenance. Has the car been serviced? Should it have been? Could someone have worked on the car and dislodged a connector?
There are grey areas about what are consumable items and what is not.
Personally I don't have lots of case law defining the edge cases. I don't have much faith in the law being consistent, fair or reliable, let alone affordable.
Personally I would suggest looking for a good indy garage to plug in a code reader, diagnose the problem and mend it.
If they find some component which has clearly been worn or corroded for the last n years, then maybe you have a case for the vendor to contribute.
Mostly likely IMHO it will be something like a sensor which fails randomly. It will quite likely be fixed for a couple of hundred quid. That is the ordinary cost of running a car outside the manufacturer's warranty.
I think the Consumer Rights Act is pretty onerous for retailers of used cars, but that 'repsonsibility' is generally 'priced in' now. Cars which should be £3k are £4k or more, because the retailer expects some of them to come back. There is a lot of vague unhelpful interpretation of the CRA on the interweb, that's the way it is. Our actual laws are written by Lewis Carroll fans and ordinary people need them translated.
As I said up thread, it may be worth talking to credit card co, if the deposit was paid that way. Not only are they possibly jointly on the hook, but they are experienced in the game. They may give useful advice or info. They may freeze the payment which may motivate the retailer to 'do the right thing'.
Unfortunately they are big animals which move very s l o w l y.....
If something can be fixed for sensible money, I would suggest getting it done rather than the stress of arguing for months when you might not win.
Even if you 'win' the dealer can deduct for time and mileage you've had the car, after attempting to fix it, so you might be car-less for a while, then lose 5 months depreciation on the refund. So you really could be better off just paying to get it sorted.
With those symptoms I would replace the battery and then see if the issues persist as they all sound related to low battery voltage and this is the time of year that batteries fail. If that resolves it then it was a 'wear and tear' item and the dealer's position is fair.
If the new battery only works for a short time but the issues return then that could point to a charging issue - a worn/slipping belt is again a wear and tear item but a faulty alternator is not so IMO you would have something to pursue the dealer for.
If the new battery only works for a short time but the issues return then that could point to a charging issue - a worn/slipping belt is again a wear and tear item but a faulty alternator is not so IMO you would have something to pursue the dealer for.
NFT said:
T0MMY said:
My partner bought a car from a very well known online car seller about 5 months ago which has now started intermittently throwing up various electrical faults (spurious warning lights, going into limp mode, tachometer going haywire, failing to start, etc.).
Presuming ICE car,I had one that did all sorts intermittently, engine codes, even swapped between revs hanging & climbing with foot off pedal and stalling at idle, had to change gear to drop revs or left foot brake and hold revs high at lights when stalling after putting up with it for a bit, cleaned inside the battery clamps and terminal poles that had slight green build up, grounds where bolted to clamps and frame, and it worked fine. Could also possibly be an issue with alternator voltage regulator, varying voltage making it go haywire, and everything going made and not starting.
Have a look for corrosion at the battery terminal, inbetween battery pole and the clamp too, esp if green build up, and ground wires, alternator could also have it where voltage regulator is bolted into the side of it too.
Not likely what you want to do, but if quick DIY can solve it, its easier.
Edited by NFT on Monday 26th February 23:11
The weather's got colder & this will show up dying batteries.
Esp if the car is used for short journeys & lots of electrics are on - lights, heated seats, heated windows etc.
Usual symptom is all sorts of electrical issues & it's a very common issue across all marques.
Usual advice is to check & clean battery terminals & battery earth, fully charge the battery with a battery charger or substitute a known good fully charged battery & see what happens.
Don't expect the alternator to charge a deeply discharged battery, they are intended to run the vehicle's electrics when running & top-up the battery.
Not just my opinion: www.optimabatteries.com/experience/blog/fact-alter...
paintman said:
NFT said:
Presuming ICE car,
I had one that did all sorts intermittently, engine codes, even swapped between revs hanging & climbing with foot off pedal and stalling at idle, had to change gear to drop revs or left foot brake and hold revs high at lights when stalling after putting up with it for a bit, cleaned inside the battery clamps and terminal poles that had slight green build up, grounds where bolted to clamps and frame, and it worked fine. Could also possibly be an issue with alternator voltage regulator, varying voltage making it go haywire, and everything going made and not starting.
Have a look for corrosion at the battery terminal, inbetween battery pole and the clamp too, esp if green build up, and ground wires, alternator could also have it where voltage regulator is bolted into the side of it too.
Not likely what you want to do, but if quick DIY can solve it, its easier.
^^^^This.I had one that did all sorts intermittently, engine codes, even swapped between revs hanging & climbing with foot off pedal and stalling at idle, had to change gear to drop revs or left foot brake and hold revs high at lights when stalling after putting up with it for a bit, cleaned inside the battery clamps and terminal poles that had slight green build up, grounds where bolted to clamps and frame, and it worked fine. Could also possibly be an issue with alternator voltage regulator, varying voltage making it go haywire, and everything going made and not starting.
Have a look for corrosion at the battery terminal, inbetween battery pole and the clamp too, esp if green build up, and ground wires, alternator could also have it where voltage regulator is bolted into the side of it too.
Not likely what you want to do, but if quick DIY can solve it, its easier.
The weather's got colder & this will show up dying batteries.
Esp if the car is used for short journeys & lots of electrics are on - lights, heated seats, heated windows etc.
Usual symptom is all sorts of electrical issues & it's a very common issue across all marques.
Usual advice is to check & clean battery terminals & battery earth, fully charge the battery with a battery charger or substitute a known good fully charged battery & see what happens.
Don't expect the alternator to charge a deeply discharged battery, they are intended to run the vehicle's electrics when running & top-up the battery.
Not just my opinion: www.optimabatteries.com/experience/blog/fact-alter...
irish boy said:
It doesn’t matter if it’s been faultless for 5 months and 29 days. If it goes wrong inside 6 months and it’s not a wear and tear item it is presumed the fault was there at the time of purchase.
Not quite that simple though, its had 5 months of use and nothing has gone wrong, the way modern cars work they don't wait 6 months to flag a fault. Either the last owner has part exchanged the car because ther is a fault and they don't want to fix it so pass it on for a dealer to do so. Or something naturally fails. If the dealer has pdi'd the car, its been mot'd and they have carried out a diagnostic scan then they can prove they have done all they can to ensure the car was fault free. Given its 5 months down the line it would make more sense for th op to have the car looked at to see what the issue is before throwing the reject claim in.
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