R90 Approved Brake Pads Road Legal.

[Earl Is The Name]

Just checking all about Brake Pads and there seems to be an issue.
Apparently these pads come in road legal and not road legal.
The not road legal ones appear to be out performing the regulations ( plus or minus 15% from OEM test results.)
But all you have to do is buy a brake upgrade kit or get a different set of calipers and then all not road legal brake pads will become road legal.
This is because there is no test results to draw from and therefore no requirement to have R90 approval.
Only time you need R90 approved pads is if you just replace the pads on a car made after 1999.
Any car made before 1999 will also have the ability to have non R90 approved pads fitted.

There is a misunderstanding on many forums about this road legal / track only brake pads.
It is a law from the EU and therefore probably stupid as always.
I mean so if your brakes are really good they are illegal and if your brakes are really crap by minus 14% then they are legal !!
Big fan of good brakes but not a fan of bad brakes....try and change my mind !
A better law would be your brake pads can not be worse than the OEM by 0% or they do not get an R90 approval.
How bizarre to have a law which can actually allow you to have 15% worse braking !!!!!!

So if you want really good brakes just get a set of Wilwoods or similar and there is many brake kits , then you can use whatever brake pads you want.
I would also tell your insurance company you have modified the brakes on your car.

[Rozzers]

R90 is about more than better friction, it’s about durability, bearing in mind that most cars aren’t serviced very often, and also about what they do to the discs through overheating.

Finally, you may find the ‘fast’ pads are crap when cold and the ramifications of having more friction on the back than the front.

The standard isn’t something the EU made up for the hell of it, it’s basically a committee with representatives from the manufacturers.

Chances of a pull for them are virtually nil, but it’s caveat emptor

[Earl Is The Name]

I think the EU made up the law to allow cheap imports , say from the Orient for example.
A brake manufacturer would never say how can we make our brakes worse....see Ratner moment !
The chances of a pull by the rozzers is as you say close to zero.
But if you have a highly modified car they can always send you for an inspection and they will find out if you have modified the pads.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/iva-man...

The chances of an insurance issue maybe high in cases of a high value claim.
Problems will be a young Dirk Diggler in his highly tuned Honda / Vauxhall / BMW / Audi will not realise that some racing brakes need to be warm to work properly.
A lot of track use only brake pads are now out performing road use brakes at all working temperatures these days.

Edited by Earl Is The Name on Thursday 22 April 20:19

[echazfraz]

wat

[Scrump]

Earl Is The Name said:

I think the EU made up the law to allow cheap imports , say from the Orient for example.
A brake manufacturer would never say how can we make our brakes worse....see Ratner moment !

I am not sure I follow your logic here.
If there is a standard which specifies minimum performance for brake pads then I would have thought that was to stop cheap low performing brake pads being sold, not to allow them.

[timbo999]

Scrump said:

I am not sure I follow your logic here.
If there is a standard which specifies minimum performance for brake pads then I would have thought that was to stop cheap low performing brake pads being sold, not to allow them.

The point being it also specifies the maximum performance of brake pads as well. Pads won't pass R90 if they are more than 15% more effective than the standard pads.

However, this doesn't apply if the braking system is non-standard. So put high temperature fluid in and you can use any pads you like...

[320d is all you need]

I've never considered if my brake pads are "road legal" and I've never heard anyone be prosecuted or fined etc or denied s payout due to this.

Many high end pads such as Pagid Rs29 are not road legal. But they are substantially better than the road legal pads available from EBC, etc.

[944 Man]

Rozzers said:

The standard isn’t something the EU made up for the hell of it

I realise that it isn't really the point, but some standards are so wide of the mark that they may as well have been. A good example is the tyre rating, which had no worth at all as initially intended and it was only after intense lobbying by interested parties that they relented and included the 'wet' element.

Before this they were about fuel efficiency and noise only. What a pointless nonsense that could have included wear/durability, lateral grip wet and dry and braking performance wet and dry too. This doesn't suit the EU's political posturing though.

[Earl Is The Name]

Scrump said:

I am not sure I follow your logic here.
If there is a standard which specifies minimum performance for brake pads then I would have thought that was to stop cheap low performing brake pads being sold, not to allow them.

I would not like my brakes to be worse than the OEM brakes by 15% and that is where low quality brakes come in.

[944 Man]

The problem with 'better' pads will be that they aren't always better. Pads that are good after ten laps are hopeless when cold.

[Earl Is The Name]

320d is all you need said:

I've never considered if my brake pads are "road legal" and I've never heard anyone be prosecuted or fined etc or denied s payout due to this.

Many high end pads such as Pagid Rs29 are not road legal. But they are substantially better than the road legal pads available from EBC, etc.

Well if you read the legislation :
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1999/2978/regu...
You will notice if your vehicle is made after 1999 you need to have R90 approved brake pads or have a modified braking system.
I have only heard of one uncited case where someone with a highly tuned car and had fitted uprated pads and was in an accident that killed someone , apparently the police asked Ferodo to idetify the pads.

Totally agree about using best pads you can get if they work from cold.
Good pads will not need a R90 rating if you get new calipers.
If you are running stock calipers then your RS29 pads are illegal even if they are better than stock pads.

[Earl Is The Name]

944 Man said:

The problem with 'better' pads will be that they aren't always better. Pads that are good after ten laps are hopeless when cold.

It depends on the make and compounds used.
Some racing brakes only work when hot and some like Ferodo DS2500 work at all temperatures.

[944 Man]

Yes, but not as well. No doubt this is where they fail EU tests which will be cold.

[Earl Is The Name]

944 Man said:

Yes, but not as well. No doubt this is where they fail EU tests which will be cold.

No they fail because they are over 15% better than OEM pads.
Ferodo DS2500 are road legal in my 924S but not in a stock Honda Civic Type R made after 1999.
Ferodo DS2500 are probably the best pads you can get they work from cold and have a flat torque curve.
It is like a 30% reduction in stopping distance.
At 30mph if I slam on the brakes the stopping distance is measured in centimeters.
The DS3000 are good racing brakes but you have to get them warm to work.

I guess you have a 944 then.

[944 Man]

Yes.

Really? That only does to reaffirm my low opinion of EU required testing.

[Earl Is The Name]

944 Man said:

Yes.

Really? That only does to reaffirm my low opinion of EU required testing.

Needs a new topic but 924S vs 944 which is better ??

Yes really !
The EU are politicians and not engineers or infact car drivers , they normally bill you for the taxi !!

As you can see from the lines the properties of the brakes :
DS2500 are not for road use but they are allowed :
https://www.ferodoracing.com/products/car-racing/r...
However the DS3000 are given a banner stating do not use on the road :
https://www.ferodoracing.com/products/car-racing/r...
The reason for this is as you correctly stated is that they require warming up.
So fitting DS3000 in your brakes to a tuned 2 door hatchback with a stick on big bore exhaust pipe will end in disaster as the hero driver approaching the favorite roundabout in winter thinking they have good brakes and find out they do not.

I have seen on many forums about using Ferodo DS3000's on the road in the UK and it is probably why I see so many go faster cars in the hedges and ditches as I drive along the highways and byways of the UK.

[320d is all you need]

I wonder how many people have used these performance brakes you mention.

I've used several high end brake pads and even in the wet and cold they have always worked. Of course they get better with heat, but they certainly work from cold.

I drove a friends track car once which had "project mu" (?) pads. Apparently from endurance racers. They worked absolutely fine cold. Better than the standard pads on my Audi at the time.

[Earl Is The Name]

320d is all you need said:

I wonder how many people have used these performance brakes you mention.

I've used several high end brake pads and even in the wet and cold they have always worked. Of course they get better with heat, but they certainly work from cold.

I drove a friends track car once which had "project mu" (?) pads. Apparently from endurance racers. They worked absolutely fine cold. Better than the standard pads on my Audi at the time.

This is part of my point "Why would you want a law which allows you to sell brakes that can perform 15% worse than OEM brakes ?"
Brakes warm up fairly fast anyway but if you look at this sales pitch you can see there is a reason for stating not for road use :
https://www.ferodoracing.com/products/car-racing/r...
The brake manufacturer could be held responsible for any accidents.
You know sell pads that are fine for road use but they do not give you the expected braking when cold.

I expect loads of people have illegal cars anyway , they sell LED lamps for external use on the Oriental Junk websites Amazon / Ebay.
The insurance and police know that if you have a tuned car your car is going to have non-approved lamps etc.
Insurance will be invalid due to this issue but probably not an MOT fail !!
The track day people are the most likely to use illegal brake pads but they probably know the brakes have to warm.

[98elise]

timbo999 said:

Scrump said:

I am not sure I follow your logic here.
If there is a standard which specifies minimum performance for brake pads then I would have thought that was to stop cheap low performing brake pads being sold, not to allow them.

The point being it also specifies the maximum performance of brake pads as well. Pads won't pass R90 if they are more than 15% more effective than the standard pads.

However, this doesn't apply if the braking system is non-standard. So put high temperature fluid in and you can use any pads you like...

Makes sense to me.

If the standard pads can lock the wheels or activate the ABS then they are perfectly adequate to stop a car, and dissipate the associated energy as heat

Better pads will only allow you to dissipate energy more often. If you have an otherwise standard braking system are those components able to copewith the additional heat?

The rules make it sound like 15% is ok, but any more might cause issues with standard systems.

It might be that manufacturers/regulators know more about cars than the average person

[timbo999]

98elise said:

Makes sense to me.

If the standard pads can lock the wheels or activate the ABS then they are perfectly adequate to stop a car, and dissipate the associated energy as heat

Better pads will only allow you to dissipate energy more often. If you have an otherwise standard braking system are those components able to copewith the additional heat?

The rules make it sound like 15% is ok, but any more might cause issues with standard systems.

It might be that manufacturers/regulators know more about cars than the average person

I tend to agree... the silliness comes about as any modification to the braking system allows legal use of non R90 pads. So, as I suggested in jest, just change the fluid, or put new stickers on the callipers!! The R90 regulations don't stipulate what mods allow non R90 pads to be used as far as I am aware.