Flashing

[Farmboy]

This is more a question for our police friends, but anybody feel free to join in. Do you ever flash your headlights to allow other motorists out of junctions etc?

I know that flashing the headlights is supposed to be used as an alternative to beeping the horn, to warn other drivers of your presence. But the more common usage is to say I've seen you and you can pull out.

The reason I ask is, I went into town earlier, which is a bit snarled up due to road works. I had right of way coming upto a crossroads. A taxi was at the junction on the left wanting to turn right. The traffic in front of me was stationary so I held back giving him room to pull out (I know the Bd wouldn't have done the same for me, but I was feeling overly courteous). A traffic T5 was coming in the opposite direction and indicating to turn right, up the road the taxi was on. He also held back slightly from the junction and flashed the headlights. The taxi took this as his Q and pulled out. Unfortunately for him white van man was coming (legitimately) down the left side of the police car and took the front bumper of the taxi with him. LMAO

Being a responsible citizen I stopped to give my details as a witness, only to recieve a short lecture from plod on the correct use of headlight flashing, after he had ascertained that I had saw his headlights flash. It struck me he was covering his Ass.

There is nothing sinister to the question, I can only report what I saw if anyone cares to ask. I was just wondering whether you follow the warning route, or the I'll let you out?

[Jarcy]

When I learnt to drive many years ago, i was taught that as per the highway code, the flashing of headlights was only for the purpose of giving warning, similar to sounding the horn. I asked my driving instructor what should I do if I wanted to let someone out of a junction and was told to use a hand signal.

Although in this situation it's universally accepted that a flash is an 'after you' and I still flash, I've always born in mind that I'm actually doing the wrong thing. Likewise if someone flashes me, I always make sure that he is intending to let me out before I leap.

The other erronous use of lights is putting your hazards on on the motorway when the traffic is slowing down. This one is illegal as hazards may only be used when stationary. It also smacks too much of numptiness and gets up my goat whenever the car in front gives me the hazard treatment. I tend to rely on the 2 (or these days 3) red lights which have been specially designed for informing drivers behind that the traffic in front is slowing down or stopping.

[cazzo]

I never use flashing as an "after-you" mainly because where I learnt to drive (Italy) it means exactly the opposite - in Italy you NEVER let anyone in front of you (unless she's young and attractive!) this has stuck with me and if I am indicating for someone to go I would use hand signals.

Maybe I'm not typical but that's my opinion. BTW I never trust anyone else's signal that it's OK, I always assume that everyone else is a numpty/out to get me, I find this approach is usually a good one.

[smeagol]

quote:
The other erronous use of lights is putting your hazards on on the motorway when the traffic is slowing down. This one is illegal as hazards may only be used when stationary. It also smacks too much of numptiness and gets up my goat whenever the car in front gives me the hazard treatment. I tend to rely on the 2 (or these days 3) red lights which have been specially designed for informing drivers behind that the traffic in front is slowing down or stopping.

Sorry you're wrong, rule 96 from the highway code:

quote:
Hazard warning lights. These may be used when your vehicle is stationary, to warn that it is temporarily obstructing traffic. Never use them as an excuse for dangerous or illegal parking. You MUST NOT use hazard warning lights whilst driving unless you are on a motorway or unrestricted dual carriageway and you need to warn drivers behind you of a hazard or obstruction ahead. Only use them for long enough to ensure that your warning has been observed.

See, the idea behind this is a damm fine one. The worst accidents happen on the motorway are caused not by the people failing to stop when the car in front has an accident. Its a cummerlative effect in that the car 3-5 cars behind will not be able to stop. There was a video on TV of a multiple smash of this type, where you could see people smashing into a queue, so the accident was actually moving backwards up the Mway, scary stuff.

The hazard lights travel backwards faster than the brake lights (as they only come on as you brake obviously) and help to buffer out this wave style problem.

So now you know when I put my hazards on on the Mway its not 'cos I'm a numpty, its 'cos I know the highway code and have no desire for a numpty to stick their car up my @rse.

>> Edited by smeagol on Monday 19th August 23:46

[madcop]

Smeagol

Spot on about rule 96

The only time that you should use headlights other than at night or times of bad visibility is to burn the Fs eyes out of their sockets. This should only be used to announce your presence if you suspect that you have not been seen.

The use of flash, flash, flash, hello deary, would you like to pull out isn't it a nice day signals will only get you into trouble.

If you have to use them then do so for an extended time, say a burst of about 4 seconds or longer and two or three to make sure you have been noticed.

If as in farmboys benevolent state of mind, you wish to allow precedence to some other person then give way but do absolutely nothing. Allow the other person to take the initiative, then if a coming together occurs as in farmboys case, you won't be a witness. Especially if you shut your eyes
(I didn't witness the accident officer I managed to close my eyes in time!)

The circumstances are still making me chuckle even now as I wind up. You are absolutely right about the reason for the lecture on the use of headlamps. The T5 was just announcing his presence.

[Farmboy]

quote:
The circumstances are still making me chuckle even now as I wind up. You are absolutely right about the reason for the lecture on the use of headlamps. The T5 was just announcing his presence.

The whole circumstances made me more than chuckle.
Plod giving me a lecture, nearly had me in hysterics!!


>> Edited by Farmboy on Tuesday 20th August 00:20

[bobthebench]

Fully concur. Use of lights warns drivers of your presence, nothing else. Give way by holding back certainly, let them take the initiative and if they think they can make it out, let them try.

Consider also, you flash a car and the other driver relies on this, pulls out and gets T-boned. Did he rely on your judgement ? i.e. that it was clear when it wasn't. Do his insurers therefore have a claim against you for contributory negligence i.e. if you hadn't flashed, he wouldn't have pulled out, car 3 wouldn't have hit him ?

Common sense says no, but its not as common as you think. Given the prevalence of no-win no-fee agencies, somebody is going to try it on. Personally I know of case law which would support it enough to catch some solicitors out.

[mel]

quote:
The other erronous use of lights is putting your hazards on on the motorway when the traffic is slowing down. This one is illegal as hazards may only be used when stationary.

Another example of the merits of continuious traning. I was of exactly the same belief up until a few weeks ago when Mrs Mel got the books for her bike theory test and I had to start reading out the questions (I only know of BMW bikes with hazards by the way ) I fealt a bit "uninformed" to say the least to learn that this was now legal and approved. Its not a finger pointing session and a :derrr divvy: but it does again show that sometimes otherwise competant and informed drivers can carry on blissfully thinking they are right about everything only to learn things have changed and no body told you. Is this why old people get in the wrong lanes at roundabouts and drive so slowly

[Gargamel]

Tend to rely on eye contact with the other driver rather than flashed lights - probably a hang over from Riding motorbikes - eye contact tells you that they have definately seen you - flashed lights are a little ambigious ..... however 99% of people use them to indicate that the other person can move out.

Especially on the motorway - moving from lane 1 to lane 2 - many drivers in lane 2 will flash you to allow you to pull out ... no chance for eye contact - but the flash signal in this circumstance is surely helpful ??

[nevpugh308]

quote:
told to use a hand signal.

Not much use if it's at night

Just playing devils advocate here for a second, as I understand it the "hazards on the motorway" USED to be illegal, but it was the case that everyone (gross exageration there ) did it, so someone on high thought "hello, that's a good idea, I know, let's make it legal".

Now, it seems everywhere I go, regardless of what you chaps are saying above, flashing headlights means "you can pull out" or, as I spent too much of my time on the M1 with 100's of lorries, "you can pull in".

So if "everyone" flashes lights to mean "you first", shouldn't the highway code be potentially reviewed on this matter ?

(p.s. remember I'm just playing !)

[trefor]

From what was written by Farmboy, it sounds to me like the Police car flashed his lights to signal to the taxi he was giving way. It was hardly to alert his presence - a big jam sandwich in the middle of the junction, the taxi would have seen him. OK, so the taxi is at fault for not checking the road was clear when he pulled out, but come on, from reading the story above the police car was not flashing to alert his presence. As for Farmboy getting a lecture - it does sound to me like PC Copper trying to justify his flashing.

Why am I not surprised by this?!?

T/.

[JARCY]

quote:

Just playing devils advocate here for a second, as I understand it the "hazards on the motorway" USED to be illegal, but it was the case that everyone (gross exageration there ) did it, so someone on high thought "hello, that's a good idea, I know, let's make it legal".

I was quoting from memory from my 1976 copy of the highway code, so glad you've confirm the accuracy of my grey matter, even if I could use a brush up of the rules.

On that note, if they're allowed to change the rules then I think Undertaking on the motorway should be permitted. Having driven in the US, the traffic flows much better when you can use any lane to pass. If everyone knows the rule then one would be drilled to look BOTH ways before changing lanes (as people so often don't).

There's nothing that annoys me more than a queue of cars in the fast lane doing 71 mph with the other 2 lanes clear.

[nevpugh308]

JARCY .... I agree, but can you imagine the chaos it would cause !! The number of accidents on m/ways would triple overnight ...

[john robson]

What madcop says is correct, I can't really add anymore. But it does seen that flashing the old headlights has become an almost universally acepted way of giving presedence to another driver, but as in this case the problem with it is that the other driver usually thinks that you have checked all the other traffic as well for them.

[spoonman]

quote:

quote:


Now, it seems everywhere I go, regardless of what you chaps are saying above, flashing headlights means "you can pull out" or, as I spent too much of my time on the M1 with 100's of lorries, "you can pull in".

My biggest concern is this: on motorways I always flash headlights as a warning to STOP other motorists pulling out into my lane. Approaching at speed, how else do you say, 'I'm coming through'?

[gemini]

Redaing what was said about hazzards on the motorway I think theres confusion.
The first writer says about using hem to indicate slowing - that is still illegal?
Hazzards on moving vehicles are not to be used.
If of course youve come to a stop then great use them - thats the law I think
But in practice you dont always brake greatly when the 2 or even 3 brake lights come on. You do if you see hazzards come on.
Its a good accident saver if used limitedly

[madcop]

The flashing of headlights to signify 'Get out of my way'.This is a slightly different issue along the same lines though.

I see this as much as any motorway user and have no problem with it if it is done in a considerate manner to in effect state your presence and intention.

The problems with it that the majority of drivers that do it are doing it because they are in a hurry, are in excess considerably of the permitted limit and are in effect not stating their intention in a considerate manner. They are saying 'Get out of the way you dick head you are slowing me up'

The other thing about it is that they often do not consider that the person in front of them blocking the way , may actually have nowhere safe to go.
(that dosen't apply for the lane 3 driver at 72 mph at 2a.m. with no one else on the road)

The best way to approach this issue is to modify your speed some distance behind the car blocking the way, wait at least the recommended distance for the speed you are travelling behind the car you wish to move over until it has somewhere to go and then state your presence. If they then move over when you go past, a prompt 'thankyou' with the left hand held up towards the central mirror talkes a considerable sting out of any antogonism caused.

The wrong way to do it is to bore down on the vehicle in front flashing the lights as you approach under braking and get two feet from the rear of the person you wish to move. This generally strengthens their resolve to 'You can FK right off Ae in your company BMW' then deliberately become obstructive to prevent the precedence of the car behind.

Consideration gets you everywhere.
beligerance gets you nowhere.

[smeagol]

quote:
On that note, if they're allowed to change the rules then I think Undertaking on the motorway should be permitted. Having driven in the US, the traffic flows much better when you can use any lane to pass. If everyone knows the rule then one would be drilled to look BOTH ways before changing lanes (as people so often don't).

There's nothing that annoys me more than a queue of cars in the fast lane doing 71 mph with the other 2 lanes clear.

Quite agree If it is a queue situation you can overtake on inside. the officail line is

quote:
Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.

Now whether you overtaking in lane 1 at say 70 whilst lane 2 has numpty doing 65mph can be classed as "keeping up with traffic in you lane" I'm not sure.

Now I've started to do exactly as you say and overtaken on the inside 'cos its stupid to cross two lanes to pass a numpty who hasn't moved from the middle lane since they joined the Mway (50miles back).

I certainly would like to see either: stricter enforcment on the middle lane hoggers OR allow overtaking on the inside. (the second seems wiser)

[mondeoman]

quote:
JARCY .... I agree, but can you imagine the chaos it would cause !! The number of accidents on m/ways would triple overnight ...

Maybe so, maybe so - but most of them caused by numpties into other numpties, and the next time they got on the motorwat they'd bloomin well stick to the left, leaving the right hand clear for once! yyyyyeeaaaaaahhhhh hhhhhaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh!!!

[mondeoman]

quote:
The problems with it that the majority of drivers that do it are doing it because they are in a hurry, are in excess considerably of the permitted limit and are in effect not stating their intention in a considerate manner. They are saying 'Get out of the way you dick head you are slowing me up'

thats because they are, and they are (dickheads and IN MY WAY )

quote:

If they then move over when you go past, a prompt 'thankyou' with the left hand held up towards the central mirror talkes a considerable sting out of any antogonism caused.

I tend to give a wink of the indicators, left, right left. Keep me hands on the wheel that way....