Gwent Police Are Gonna Screw Me Over - HELP!
Discussion
Hey there all... I'm quite worried about a speeding camera ticket that I just received and I'm wondering if there is anyone out there that has any advice to give me to help me fight it.
Basically I think I can remember the morning in question. I was driving down through roadworks on the A40 / A449 toward Monmouth when I was flashed by a speed camera in the Raglan roadworks. The signs right before and after the camera had clearly stated 50mph and I was doing (As proved by my notice) 44mph. Worse, a few days later they put in the correct signs (30mph) for the speed camera.
This worried me, but I thought there wouldn't be a problem as they would obviously not prosecute due to the wrong speed signs being in place. This occurred on the 12/06/2002, and after about a month I thought nothing more of it. Until now: The notice was sent on the 16/08/2002 and I received it yesterday (17/08/2002).
I'm hoping that they have no case against me, but I do not know how to fight it. Not only have they taken too long to get me the ticket (Not that I should have got the ticket sent to me anyway as explained in the next paragraph), but they have also incorrectly said I was exceeding the speed limit.
The only problem I see is that my girlfriend is the registered keeper of the car, so the date the NIP was issued may not apply. However - I do not understand how they have sent the notice to me, as she has received nothing asking if she was driving that day (Which she does sometimes) and all NIPs are supposed to go to the registered keeper first...
Please help me, I have only been driving for a year and will be banned if I get 6 points under the new laws.
Thanks!
Basically I think I can remember the morning in question. I was driving down through roadworks on the A40 / A449 toward Monmouth when I was flashed by a speed camera in the Raglan roadworks. The signs right before and after the camera had clearly stated 50mph and I was doing (As proved by my notice) 44mph. Worse, a few days later they put in the correct signs (30mph) for the speed camera.
This worried me, but I thought there wouldn't be a problem as they would obviously not prosecute due to the wrong speed signs being in place. This occurred on the 12/06/2002, and after about a month I thought nothing more of it. Until now: The notice was sent on the 16/08/2002 and I received it yesterday (17/08/2002).
I'm hoping that they have no case against me, but I do not know how to fight it. Not only have they taken too long to get me the ticket (Not that I should have got the ticket sent to me anyway as explained in the next paragraph), but they have also incorrectly said I was exceeding the speed limit.
The only problem I see is that my girlfriend is the registered keeper of the car, so the date the NIP was issued may not apply. However - I do not understand how they have sent the notice to me, as she has received nothing asking if she was driving that day (Which she does sometimes) and all NIPs are supposed to go to the registered keeper first...
Please help me, I have only been driving for a year and will be banned if I get 6 points under the new laws.
Thanks!
Sounds like you're in the clear - see bobthebench and madcop's advice here:
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=15466
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=15466
Yeah... I know about the 14 day rule. But I'm not sure how this applies in my case. You see... It has to be sent to the "Registered Owner / Keeper" within 14 days, but in this case I am not that person. To the best of my knowledge (and that of anyone in my house) there has been no initial letter, which means the police have probably looked through their records for who is the last known driver (Me, in a crash 4 months ago) and sent it on.
Now... Somehow I need to find out if they sent any initial letter. If they didn't, I think I am ok. If they did then it falls within the 6 month rule and I have to do down the much harder route of proving that the road was signposted at 50mph at the time. The worst thing is that the roadworks have now changed, and I'm not sure how that will affect me.
...and you know - I was just saying the other day that life was boring lately!
Now... Somehow I need to find out if they sent any initial letter. If they didn't, I think I am ok. If they did then it falls within the 6 month rule and I have to do down the much harder route of proving that the road was signposted at 50mph at the time. The worst thing is that the roadworks have now changed, and I'm not sure how that will affect me.
...and you know - I was just saying the other day that life was boring lately!
Oh yeah. It's pretty sucky even now. But at the time on the Raglan roadworks there were 50 signs only. I even saw the bastages putting up the 30 signs a couple of mornings later.
A few of my colleagues said they got flashed as well so I will be asking if their NIPs have arrived lately.
A few of my colleagues said they got flashed as well so I will be asking if their NIPs have arrived lately.
Lot of ifs, maybes and I'm not sures for anything definite. Really need to clarify the facts first.
Need to know firstly what you received. Speeding ticket covers many things. Likely to be headed Notice Of Intended Prosecution, Summons, or request for information under S.172 of the Road Traffic Act, i.e were you driving ? Given the passage of time, 1 is unlikely, but still possible. Check carefully and post the result.
If you're going to court, what for. You seem to think you know the road/morning in question. Paperwork should clearly state this. If a summons, it will state the offence, and therefore the legislation you breached. This info would help.
If your position is as outlined, you need proof of the signing. Was anyone else there with you ? If not, try the roads contractor to see if they altered the signs. If they were planned works, the council should have a copy road order stating the temporary limit, ask them ? (many temp works don't need this, but check)
Really need a heart to heart with the girlfriend and check she received nothing. NIPs need to be sent within 14 days, not received. Ironically, the fact no-one ever recevied one is no bar to prosecution, so it can get lost in the post ! Posting NIP to registered keeper within 14 days is warning enough. If not done, or she didn't reply leaves the question of how did they get your name. Cops won't assume, CPS would reject the case if they did. They must have sufficient evidence to prove in court you were driving, or that is what the letter is asking, need more details. It all adds up to looking like the registered keeper has had and replied to a letter.
In summary it looks like you need to do a bit more digging and quick. Otherwise an expensive legal bill could be on the horizon.
Incidentally, returning to the attention to detail. You won't get banned for 6 months. The court notifies DVLA and in turn the Secretary of State revokes your licence for 6 months. Not much consolation if you end up out in the rain on a pushbike, but legally they are different, especially your rights to challenge them.
Need to know firstly what you received. Speeding ticket covers many things. Likely to be headed Notice Of Intended Prosecution, Summons, or request for information under S.172 of the Road Traffic Act, i.e were you driving ? Given the passage of time, 1 is unlikely, but still possible. Check carefully and post the result.
If you're going to court, what for. You seem to think you know the road/morning in question. Paperwork should clearly state this. If a summons, it will state the offence, and therefore the legislation you breached. This info would help.
If your position is as outlined, you need proof of the signing. Was anyone else there with you ? If not, try the roads contractor to see if they altered the signs. If they were planned works, the council should have a copy road order stating the temporary limit, ask them ? (many temp works don't need this, but check)
Really need a heart to heart with the girlfriend and check she received nothing. NIPs need to be sent within 14 days, not received. Ironically, the fact no-one ever recevied one is no bar to prosecution, so it can get lost in the post ! Posting NIP to registered keeper within 14 days is warning enough. If not done, or she didn't reply leaves the question of how did they get your name. Cops won't assume, CPS would reject the case if they did. They must have sufficient evidence to prove in court you were driving, or that is what the letter is asking, need more details. It all adds up to looking like the registered keeper has had and replied to a letter.
In summary it looks like you need to do a bit more digging and quick. Otherwise an expensive legal bill could be on the horizon.
Incidentally, returning to the attention to detail. You won't get banned for 6 months. The court notifies DVLA and in turn the Secretary of State revokes your licence for 6 months. Not much consolation if you end up out in the rain on a pushbike, but legally they are different, especially your rights to challenge them.
Sorry... should have been clearer. Basically I got a NIP from an "Auto camera device" on the A40 raglan roadworks (44 in 30 zone). It's the two page thing that you have to fill in the second page of (Driver / Not Driver / Hire Company).
As for the road, yes - I know it well :-( basically I drive 90 miles a day to and from work (Cardiff to Gloucestershire) and most of it is done on the A449 / A40.
I am driving by the roadworks tomorrow so I will be checking for any sign of a number / council to call to try and get the information on when the roadworks started (If I am right it is a couple of days before my ticket) and when they put up the correct speed signs. Unfortunately there was no-one else in the car, but when it happened I spoke to others that do the journey and they said they saw only 50mph signs and think they might have been flashed.
As for the missus... well she lives with me, and I pick up the mail before I go to work so I would have noticed. She aint the sort of person to do that anyway, cos if I lose my licence, I lose my job and she loses my money! I know that it's possible it got lost, but I also know that the police force need to provide proof of postage if it gets to court.
I really do believe she has not had any mail from them, and yes, to be honest I am totally freaked by the fact the NIP came in my name as I figured if I ever got one it would go to her first as the registered keeper. I really need to get the photos and see if there is some sort of banner on my car saying "I'm driving, my name and address are..." hehe. I hate to go back to it... but shes a sensible girl and we have discussed what getting a speeding ticket would entail due to me driving her car so often. Let's put it this way... if the cops can prove she sent info stating I was the driver there will be some stern words to be had and her pocket money will be cut! ;-)
Thanks for all the info though, some more food for thought.
p.s. I get the feeling that cycling 45 miles to work on a pushbike may take quite some time!
As for the road, yes - I know it well :-( basically I drive 90 miles a day to and from work (Cardiff to Gloucestershire) and most of it is done on the A449 / A40.
I am driving by the roadworks tomorrow so I will be checking for any sign of a number / council to call to try and get the information on when the roadworks started (If I am right it is a couple of days before my ticket) and when they put up the correct speed signs. Unfortunately there was no-one else in the car, but when it happened I spoke to others that do the journey and they said they saw only 50mph signs and think they might have been flashed.
As for the missus... well she lives with me, and I pick up the mail before I go to work so I would have noticed. She aint the sort of person to do that anyway, cos if I lose my licence, I lose my job and she loses my money! I know that it's possible it got lost, but I also know that the police force need to provide proof of postage if it gets to court.
I really do believe she has not had any mail from them, and yes, to be honest I am totally freaked by the fact the NIP came in my name as I figured if I ever got one it would go to her first as the registered keeper. I really need to get the photos and see if there is some sort of banner on my car saying "I'm driving, my name and address are..." hehe. I hate to go back to it... but shes a sensible girl and we have discussed what getting a speeding ticket would entail due to me driving her car so often. Let's put it this way... if the cops can prove she sent info stating I was the driver there will be some stern words to be had and her pocket money will be cut! ;-)
Thanks for all the info though, some more food for thought.
p.s. I get the feeling that cycling 45 miles to work on a pushbike may take quite some time!
No hassle. Sounds like what you've got is NIP and request for info. This should be issued within 14 days by the cops, exceptions and extensions do exist, but proseuting authorities must remain diligent throughout. They forgot/short staffed does not equal diligent, so challenge it. Advice at this stage would be to reply with a letter as outlined elsewhere on site challenging the validity of the NIP. Might also add at this stage that you intend to challenge validity of the alleged speed limit as you have evidence that 50mph signs were displayed, but no 30. OK so that evidence is basically your word, as opposed to theirs. They will probably come back with police witnesses who patrol the road daily and will confirm 30 signs were up, worth a try.
Would point out that "others" in this situation may only have seen 50 signs. That often doesn't mean there weren't 30 signs, only that some folk never seen them. (Maybe if they were whizzing past at 50...only kidding)
See many a witness fall to bits when asked "Are you saying on oath there were no signs (or whatever) or that you did not see those signs ?"
Not questioning the other half's integrity, it just seems odd if they write to you first, not her. Might double check the v5 even.
At this stage you can't refuse to reply, but how you reply may easily make the difference between a day in court, and some cop deciding "Sod it, it ain't worth the hassle", so craft your letter very carefully.
Anyway, ain't that road mainly downhill to Newport !!
Would point out that "others" in this situation may only have seen 50 signs. That often doesn't mean there weren't 30 signs, only that some folk never seen them. (Maybe if they were whizzing past at 50...only kidding)
See many a witness fall to bits when asked "Are you saying on oath there were no signs (or whatever) or that you did not see those signs ?"
Not questioning the other half's integrity, it just seems odd if they write to you first, not her. Might double check the v5 even.
At this stage you can't refuse to reply, but how you reply may easily make the difference between a day in court, and some cop deciding "Sod it, it ain't worth the hassle", so craft your letter very carefully.
Anyway, ain't that road mainly downhill to Newport !!
Yeah... but I was heading uphill to Monmouth! :-)
These guys are fairly tough cookies (and upper management too) that drive a hell of a lot of miles so I think they could be relied on. I know they would back me up - But I don't want it to go that far. Worse for me is that I saw the workmen actually setting up the signs a couple of days later. I tell you, I could have crashed from shock. I think what happended is that the plod put the camera in and set it before the roadworks were fully setup. The workmen put the signs in and screwed it up. No way to really prove it for sure, but when I drove home later I stopped on a bridge that is right above the roadworks to double check (Why the hell didn't I take a camera now I think of it.) and they were definately 50mph signs.
We checked the reg docs straight away. The missus is gonna call the DVLA to make sure, but there is no mistake. She only got the car 9 months ago and we havent changed a thing other than the tax (Which she bought.). Like I said, there is another way they could have found out it was me (The crash) but I don't know enough about police procedure to know if that's the way they would have done it. My uncle is an inspector for the force, but he refused to help me anyway cos he has been done for speeding before (Asshole).
I figure I have about 21 days before I have to do something. I will gather as much evidence as I can before I do that though, so that I am in the best position possible.
My list so far is:
Council: Speed limit signs on temp roadworks if poss.
Police: Photos from camera (Are there any speed signs visible, can they see if it is a man driving so they worked it out and sent it straight to me?)
Police: Can they provide me with the initial proof of posting of the NIP to the registered owner (I may wait on this one so that I don't give them too much info.)
Of course, actually getting this stuff is another story! Thanks again all... I'll keep you all updated.
These guys are fairly tough cookies (and upper management too) that drive a hell of a lot of miles so I think they could be relied on. I know they would back me up - But I don't want it to go that far. Worse for me is that I saw the workmen actually setting up the signs a couple of days later. I tell you, I could have crashed from shock. I think what happended is that the plod put the camera in and set it before the roadworks were fully setup. The workmen put the signs in and screwed it up. No way to really prove it for sure, but when I drove home later I stopped on a bridge that is right above the roadworks to double check (Why the hell didn't I take a camera now I think of it.) and they were definately 50mph signs.
We checked the reg docs straight away. The missus is gonna call the DVLA to make sure, but there is no mistake. She only got the car 9 months ago and we havent changed a thing other than the tax (Which she bought.). Like I said, there is another way they could have found out it was me (The crash) but I don't know enough about police procedure to know if that's the way they would have done it. My uncle is an inspector for the force, but he refused to help me anyway cos he has been done for speeding before (Asshole).
I figure I have about 21 days before I have to do something. I will gather as much evidence as I can before I do that though, so that I am in the best position possible.
My list so far is:
Council: Speed limit signs on temp roadworks if poss.
Police: Photos from camera (Are there any speed signs visible, can they see if it is a man driving so they worked it out and sent it straight to me?)
Police: Can they provide me with the initial proof of posting of the NIP to the registered owner (I may wait on this one so that I don't give them too much info.)
Of course, actually getting this stuff is another story! Thanks again all... I'll keep you all updated.
Hehe... I even have a map ref on exactly where the camera is now. Anyone interested who has autoroute can see the road at 51.76826 North and 2.83312 West.
Another thing, half way down this page (www.speedcamerasuk.com/WAM1-7.htm) is the camera in question. In fact, the guy who posted this may have caught whilst the signs were still showing 50mph (Although it may have been a day after). Shame I can't get hold of him really.
I wonder how many more were caught. Maybe I should stick up a huge banner on the road! :-)
>> Edited by Psychotext on Sunday 18th August 21:24
>> Edited by Psychotext on Sunday 18th August 21:31
Another thing, half way down this page (www.speedcamerasuk.com/WAM1-7.htm) is the camera in question. In fact, the guy who posted this may have caught whilst the signs were still showing 50mph (Although it may have been a day after). Shame I can't get hold of him really.
I wonder how many more were caught. Maybe I should stick up a huge banner on the road! :-)
>> Edited by Psychotext on Sunday 18th August 21:24
>> Edited by Psychotext on Sunday 18th August 21:31
On the same note... does anyone know if there is any way to find out when the initial notice was served? Everyone in my house is adamant that there was no notice which means either it was never sent or it was lost in the mail.
Either way there should be no way that they have been able to place me as the driver in the car at the time (So confused).
Is it worth asking the missus to hit them with the data protection act? Or is there a standard way of doing things like this?
Thanks again all.
Either way there should be no way that they have been able to place me as the driver in the car at the time (So confused).
Is it worth asking the missus to hit them with the data protection act? Or is there a standard way of doing things like this?
Thanks again all.
More updates... I got my girlfriend to phone the DVLA today and ask who is down as the registered keeper. Apparently the garage we bought it from had taken a long time to send on the reg docs and there was some confusion. The docs still showed her as the last known owner, but I think it said that the current owner is unknown. That should all be sorted out now though and she will be back as the registered keeper.
Thing is... I don't know if this works in my favour or not. I'd imagine the DVLA will change the record so that she appears as the continuos owner. In which case I should be able to send the NIP back stating I am not the registered keeper, and asking who named me as the driver and what proof of postage they have on the original NIP.
Other info...
1: The roadworks people have dug the camera up. All I can hope for now is that they also dig the road with the lines up so that I can ask the police to prove that the lines were spaced correctly. Maybe there is some other advantage of the camera being dug up that I am not thinking of.
2: Spoke to the people in work. Both remember that stretch of the roadworks being a 50mph stretch (Whilst the camera was there) and then changed to 30mph.
Ho-hum... this is looking more and more like a $$$ for a solicitor job, and I don't even know what they are planning on penalising me with yet.
Thing is... I don't know if this works in my favour or not. I'd imagine the DVLA will change the record so that she appears as the continuos owner. In which case I should be able to send the NIP back stating I am not the registered keeper, and asking who named me as the driver and what proof of postage they have on the original NIP.
Other info...
1: The roadworks people have dug the camera up. All I can hope for now is that they also dig the road with the lines up so that I can ask the police to prove that the lines were spaced correctly. Maybe there is some other advantage of the camera being dug up that I am not thinking of.
2: Spoke to the people in work. Both remember that stretch of the roadworks being a 50mph stretch (Whilst the camera was there) and then changed to 30mph.
Ho-hum... this is looking more and more like a $$$ for a solicitor job, and I don't even know what they are planning on penalising me with yet.
Psycho....dont start with a solicitor os as you say they cost money!" What you need to do ehre is write some serious letters outlining a lot of what you've posted above....then send them off. Believe me if you get to court and say.. "I believe this is wrong, and Ive done the following...list of letters and info askde for' etc...you will get taken a LOT more seriously than just showing up on the day with solicitor whoc may not be much ue anyway.....
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