Bargaining with the CPS
Discussion
I was stopped for 102 on the M5 the other week at 2 am in the morning on an empty straight section of road.
The officer told me that due to the fact that it was over 100 mph they had no other choice (bollox) other than to give me a NIP then and there and that usually at this speed a ban is mandatory.
However a mate of mine was stopped in Scotland a couple of years ago and bargained his way from 105 down to 98 mph and together with mitigating circumstances he got off with a fine and 3 points.
As soon as my court date arrives I will get onto my lawyer and try and plea bargain with them. It is certainly worth a try, but as I already have 6 points I am preparing for a ban.
Anyone know the likely length of a ban a this speed?
The officer told me that due to the fact that it was over 100 mph they had no other choice (bollox) other than to give me a NIP then and there and that usually at this speed a ban is mandatory.
However a mate of mine was stopped in Scotland a couple of years ago and bargained his way from 105 down to 98 mph and together with mitigating circumstances he got off with a fine and 3 points.
As soon as my court date arrives I will get onto my lawyer and try and plea bargain with them. It is certainly worth a try, but as I already have 6 points I am preparing for a ban.
Anyone know the likely length of a ban a this speed?
Couple of points to cover. At the earliest stage, bargaining is with the Police, who have discretion whether to report you or not. Can also help by either reporting you did XXX mph, or in excess of YYY mph, depends on detection method, latter only really an option in something like VASCAR. If you don't get a Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty from the cop who stops you, unliklely you ever will, it's court I'm afraid. No bargaining.
Once in court you can start bargaining with CPS. Their sole aim is to get a conviction for their stats, no interest in what speed you really or are charged with. Court papers are usually allocated shortly before court, literally, so not really worth writing in. When you turn up for the pleading diet, CPS solicitor will be looking to settle as many cases as possible as quickly as possible, so will consider offers then. Usually reluctant or refuse to haggle/bargain with punters, but never a problem where a solicitor is employed. Logic being if you are willing to employ a solicitor, you could well be willing to plead not guilty and go to trial. That takes up time and effort and a win is not guaranteed, CPS could screw up, police witness on holiday, one of the cops put their foot in it. Why should they take the risk ? If you appear without a lawyer, you're seen as a chancer. You'll either plead guilty to whatever's thrown at you, or take it to trial and shoot yourself in the foot.
ACPO does issue guidelines to officers, but they are only guides. In accident blackspots you can go to court for relatively lower speeds, likewise younger or newly qualified drivers, or if you have a collection of points already.
Be aware magistrates also operate to guidelines. By haggling with CPS you want to persuade them to alter the summons from "travelling at XXX mph" to "YYY mph" if you think that will lower the penalty imposed. In reality we see what the old figure was anyway !!! CPS are unlikely to allege that figure if they can't prove it, so bargaining hides nothing. However since sentence must reflect the crime admitted, so confession to within 30 of the limit restricts scope for a ban as it is more open to an appeal.
Only ones kept in the dark really are insurers, who only see conviction, therefore speed agreed between you.
Once in court you can start bargaining with CPS. Their sole aim is to get a conviction for their stats, no interest in what speed you really or are charged with. Court papers are usually allocated shortly before court, literally, so not really worth writing in. When you turn up for the pleading diet, CPS solicitor will be looking to settle as many cases as possible as quickly as possible, so will consider offers then. Usually reluctant or refuse to haggle/bargain with punters, but never a problem where a solicitor is employed. Logic being if you are willing to employ a solicitor, you could well be willing to plead not guilty and go to trial. That takes up time and effort and a win is not guaranteed, CPS could screw up, police witness on holiday, one of the cops put their foot in it. Why should they take the risk ? If you appear without a lawyer, you're seen as a chancer. You'll either plead guilty to whatever's thrown at you, or take it to trial and shoot yourself in the foot.
ACPO does issue guidelines to officers, but they are only guides. In accident blackspots you can go to court for relatively lower speeds, likewise younger or newly qualified drivers, or if you have a collection of points already.
Be aware magistrates also operate to guidelines. By haggling with CPS you want to persuade them to alter the summons from "travelling at XXX mph" to "YYY mph" if you think that will lower the penalty imposed. In reality we see what the old figure was anyway !!! CPS are unlikely to allege that figure if they can't prove it, so bargaining hides nothing. However since sentence must reflect the crime admitted, so confession to within 30 of the limit restricts scope for a ban as it is more open to an appeal.
Only ones kept in the dark really are insurers, who only see conviction, therefore speed agreed between you.
quote:
I was stopped for 102 on the M5 the other week at 2 am in the morning on an empty straight section of road.
The officer told me that due to the fact that it was over 100 mph they had no other choice (bollox) other than to give me a NIP then and there and that usually at this speed a ban is mandatory.
However a mate of mine was stopped in Scotland a couple of years ago and bargained his way from 105 down to 98 mph and together with mitigating circumstances he got off with a fine and 3 points.
As soon as my court date arrives I will get onto my lawyer and try and plea bargain with them. It is certainly worth a try, but as I already have 6 points I am preparing for a ban.
Anyone know the likely length of a ban a this speed?
102 would be borderline for a ban, by no means certain. My earlier post might be of interest, but getting a solicitor gives you the best hope, even if he is expensive.
Basically plan ahead. There are three options, immediate ban, less than 6 points, or the full 6 points. Nowadays a ban at that speed is harsh, especially on a motorway unless there are local circumstances, bad accident record etc. ( Scottish case highlights this )
3-5 points. Your track record rules out 3, coupled with the speed makes 4 unlikely, so aim for 5 points. List all the criteria which are in your favour, e.g. Motorway rather than urban, twisting road, dry (I hope), no other traffic. Avoid incriminating elements - I'd be working all day and needed my bed, I was concentrating absolutely on the road ( but never saw this 16 foot jam sandwich parked at the side of the road ) etc. Try emailing Tallchris who faced a similar dilemma recently and kept his licence.
Worst of all, 6 points. This leads to a ban unless you can show exceptional hardship. This means something more than losing job, can't pay mortgage etc and needs professional help.
Assuming yoiu express remorse, you could get 4-5 points and a large fine, £200 - £300. Immediate ban for the offence very unlikely, but could be under a month. Or if you get 6 points, and never been disqualified before, 6 months totting up ban.
bobthebench,
Thanks for that advice, I certainly will involve my solicitor in building a case for a defence and would hope that 4-5 points is the likely outcome.
I have most things in my favour, the road was clear, dry and completley free of traffic. I was caught by VASCAR over 3.9 miles. The traffic police were hidden very well, I normally spot these guys but missed them completley, they were well hidden and admitted this in the car. Also the charging officer did state she would put on the statement that the road was clear, dry etc.
Also have just lost my job so need every penny!
Thanks again
Simon
Thanks for that advice, I certainly will involve my solicitor in building a case for a defence and would hope that 4-5 points is the likely outcome.
I have most things in my favour, the road was clear, dry and completley free of traffic. I was caught by VASCAR over 3.9 miles. The traffic police were hidden very well, I normally spot these guys but missed them completley, they were well hidden and admitted this in the car. Also the charging officer did state she would put on the statement that the road was clear, dry etc.
Also have just lost my job so need every penny!
Thanks again
Simon
bobthebench
Not meaning to sound nosey or anything, Are you on the bench for real?
The advice you have given is most helpful now and for the future (touch wood I don't need it) and seems to be confident and to the point which would lead me to believe the answer to my question would be "yes"
Not meaning to sound nosey or anything, Are you on the bench for real?
The advice you have given is most helpful now and for the future (touch wood I don't need it) and seems to be confident and to the point which would lead me to believe the answer to my question would be "yes"
In answer to Annoyed
There is a saying in legal circles that he who acts for himself has a fool for a client. I don't know you at all, but .... Most people can deal with a court appearance with a degree of common-sense. Your speed however suggests get a brief, personally I would tend to for that speed, but if you don't want to ;
a) Stand in front of the mirror before you go to court and rehearse any bullshit you might be inclined to spout out. Best get it out the system now, cos' when it comes out in court it's as obvious as cheap aftershave. Now try humble and ashamed. You don't need to feel it, just look it.
b) clean licence should be emphasized asap. A ban for a first offence is unlikely, more likely the bench will try to scare the crap out you first, 6 points and a big financial reminder to keep to the speed limit. But only if they know from the outset your clean
c) if you are familiar with the area, consider from press reports if bans are likely. Papers love courts for filler during a quiet week and will often give a paragraph to interesting cases, such as bans ! Find out what speed they apply them at, it varies between courts and even benches.
If you do opt for professional assistance, don't go to the first or the cheapest, but the one that's recommended. Don't expect to save his, or her, fee from the fine. They role is to reduce the risk of a ban etc, not really to save you money.
Perhaps you could try posting here or on abd for solicitors in your area, time permitting.
There is a saying in legal circles that he who acts for himself has a fool for a client. I don't know you at all, but .... Most people can deal with a court appearance with a degree of common-sense. Your speed however suggests get a brief, personally I would tend to for that speed, but if you don't want to ;
a) Stand in front of the mirror before you go to court and rehearse any bullshit you might be inclined to spout out. Best get it out the system now, cos' when it comes out in court it's as obvious as cheap aftershave. Now try humble and ashamed. You don't need to feel it, just look it.
b) clean licence should be emphasized asap. A ban for a first offence is unlikely, more likely the bench will try to scare the crap out you first, 6 points and a big financial reminder to keep to the speed limit. But only if they know from the outset your clean
c) if you are familiar with the area, consider from press reports if bans are likely. Papers love courts for filler during a quiet week and will often give a paragraph to interesting cases, such as bans ! Find out what speed they apply them at, it varies between courts and even benches.
If you do opt for professional assistance, don't go to the first or the cheapest, but the one that's recommended. Don't expect to save his, or her, fee from the fine. They role is to reduce the risk of a ban etc, not really to save you money.
Perhaps you could try posting here or on abd for solicitors in your area, time permitting.
Next.
Simonm. Such a distance on Vascar is useful, it gives scope to round it down/limit evidence to one of your slower stretches.
re- road conditions. The charging officer isn't the one who stands up in court, the CPS does. I'm sure you've seen it on the Bill often enough, where good cop in the routine says they'll put a word in to the CPS but can't guarantee anything. CPS may well forget to highlight this fact in court. If they do, make sure your solicitor doesn't. If you opt for DIY try to do it in such a way that you don't look as if your trying to justify the speed, something along the lines of
"The road was dry, there was good visibility and little or no traffic. I appreciate now that perhaps in such quiet conditions I need to concentrate more on my speed not less. I was shocked when I heard the police read me/show me the speed I was doing"
Simonm. Such a distance on Vascar is useful, it gives scope to round it down/limit evidence to one of your slower stretches.
re- road conditions. The charging officer isn't the one who stands up in court, the CPS does. I'm sure you've seen it on the Bill often enough, where good cop in the routine says they'll put a word in to the CPS but can't guarantee anything. CPS may well forget to highlight this fact in court. If they do, make sure your solicitor doesn't. If you opt for DIY try to do it in such a way that you don't look as if your trying to justify the speed, something along the lines of
"The road was dry, there was good visibility and little or no traffic. I appreciate now that perhaps in such quiet conditions I need to concentrate more on my speed not less. I was shocked when I heard the police read me/show me the speed I was doing"
take a rubber brick to bounce off the benched heads. Thats ushally the only way to wake them up.
most of them are just jumped up prats who get off on a little power trip. and like to see you grovel.
I would rather spit in there eye that grovol to there bullshit.
chased one round my local town center once. You you have seen him shit his self.
most of them are just jumped up prats who get off on a little power trip. and like to see you grovel.
I would rather spit in there eye that grovol to there bullshit.
chased one round my local town center once. You you have seen him shit his self.
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