police/public relations
Discussion
As the increased use of civillian manned, unmarked, mobile speed camera equiped vehicles escalates unmentioned beside the flurry of media interest over "visible" gatsos, what do members think this is going to do to the already damaged relationship between normally law abiding motorists and the police??
I have heard that even in my "community" disrespect for the (civil)police is being replaced with actual dislike and in some cases hatred (their words not mine)of fellow servants of the crown.
Do members think that the Police have a lot to answer for in these cases and if this is the changes of attitudes of fellow crown servants, just what do the public at large really fell now??
(Incidentally a partner of once of my fellow crown servants is a serving police officer undergoing "advanced driving training" and has stated the only reason that the partner is sticking with it is at the end of the course they get to drive a "cossie" up the A9 at whatever speed they can reach!!FFS)
No I'm not trolling either.MoJo.
I have heard that even in my "community" disrespect for the (civil)police is being replaced with actual dislike and in some cases hatred (their words not mine)of fellow servants of the crown.
Do members think that the Police have a lot to answer for in these cases and if this is the changes of attitudes of fellow crown servants, just what do the public at large really fell now??
(Incidentally a partner of once of my fellow crown servants is a serving police officer undergoing "advanced driving training" and has stated the only reason that the partner is sticking with it is at the end of the course they get to drive a "cossie" up the A9 at whatever speed they can reach!!FFS)
No I'm not trolling either.MoJo.
Why let it bother you at all. I speed, if I get caught I've nobody to blame but myself and I take it on the chin.
That's life, its shit sometimes but if being done for speeding is the most you have to worry about you don't really have much to worry about at all...
BTW, I'll bet you're mate will come out of his driving course with a totally different attitude, I did.
Rob
That's life, its shit sometimes but if being done for speeding is the most you have to worry about you don't really have much to worry about at all...
BTW, I'll bet you're mate will come out of his driving course with a totally different attitude, I did.
Rob
It's a bit underhanded using an unmarked vehicle at the side of the road to catch people out as there is no visible deterant to make people slow down they cant use sneaky cameras now so they have reverted to using sneaky unmarked vans , anyway though these had to be all marked up ??
Oh ive changed me name because i havent got the ZZR anymore so im using my old school nickname
Oh ive changed me name because i havent got the ZZR anymore so im using my old school nickname
Dont you really think that because there is always the chance that there may be an unmarked traffic car, Camera van etc around that, to some extent it keeps the lid on things a bit.
If all sites were extensively advertised prior to the check area, then in other areas where there was no advanced warnings because there are no detection measures, there would be something of a free for all.
Perhaps the answer is to advertise on all roads periodically 'UNMARKED POLICE VEHICLES PATROL THIS AREA'
Then no one could complain about not being warned when they are caught.
Dont start to think that it is the Police that post the limits everywhere. They don't. It is the local authority and the Govt that are responsible for the legislation and where it applies. The Govt then direct the Police to enforce the relevant laws and penalise them if they do not reach performance targets.
The Police are consulted in the posting of limits but it is not solely their durisdiction. I know of Traffic Officers on Road Safety pannels that will object to limits in areas they think are inapproppriate but the planners have the last say in it.
Once again I will state that the Police don't receive the benefits from speed cameras or other detection methods, except to pay for more camera sites and detection equipment (CAPPING OFF). They cannot use the money for any other purpose.
It really is a question here sort of 'dont shoot the messenger'
To be hated by the public is not something that really concerns me or probably many of those I work with. We are universally hated by quite wide spread sections of the public until they need our help. Many of them still hate us but use us anyway. Strange how attitudes generally then change.
Personally I didn't join the Police to be liked. I joined to try and make the place a little bit better for those that want to enjoy a peaceful life, uninterupted by scumbags and those that will unlawfully interfere with their law abiding activities.
You cannot please all of the people all of the time!
(or for that matter, these days even some of the people)
>> Edited by madcop on Sunday 21st July 18:42
If all sites were extensively advertised prior to the check area, then in other areas where there was no advanced warnings because there are no detection measures, there would be something of a free for all.
Perhaps the answer is to advertise on all roads periodically 'UNMARKED POLICE VEHICLES PATROL THIS AREA'
Then no one could complain about not being warned when they are caught.
Dont start to think that it is the Police that post the limits everywhere. They don't. It is the local authority and the Govt that are responsible for the legislation and where it applies. The Govt then direct the Police to enforce the relevant laws and penalise them if they do not reach performance targets.
The Police are consulted in the posting of limits but it is not solely their durisdiction. I know of Traffic Officers on Road Safety pannels that will object to limits in areas they think are inapproppriate but the planners have the last say in it.
Once again I will state that the Police don't receive the benefits from speed cameras or other detection methods, except to pay for more camera sites and detection equipment (CAPPING OFF). They cannot use the money for any other purpose.
It really is a question here sort of 'dont shoot the messenger'
To be hated by the public is not something that really concerns me or probably many of those I work with. We are universally hated by quite wide spread sections of the public until they need our help. Many of them still hate us but use us anyway. Strange how attitudes generally then change.
Personally I didn't join the Police to be liked. I joined to try and make the place a little bit better for those that want to enjoy a peaceful life, uninterupted by scumbags and those that will unlawfully interfere with their law abiding activities.
You cannot please all of the people all of the time!
(or for that matter, these days even some of the people)
>> Edited by madcop on Sunday 21st July 18:42
quote:
Some members are perhaps getting the wrong idea from my posting.
It was the depth of animosity that came through when I held a bit of a straw poll that surprised and shocked me.
Let me state that without the Police we would all be living in a state of anarchy.
rather anarchy than a police state.
quote:
Dont you really think that because there is always the chance that there may be an unmarked traffic car, Camera van etc around that, to some extent it keeps the lid on things a bit.
If all sites were extensively advertised prior to the check area, then in other areas where there was no advanced warnings because there are no detection measures, there would be something of a free for all.
Perhaps the answer is to advertise on all roads periodically 'UNMARKED POLICE VEHICLES PATROL THIS AREA'
Then no one could complain about not being warned when they are caught.
Dont start to think that it is the Police that post the limits everywhere. They don't. It is the local authority and the Govt that are responsible for the legislation and where it applies. The Govt then direct the Police to enforce the relevant laws and penalise them if they do not reach performance targets.
The Police are consulted in the posting of limits but it is not solely their durisdiction. I know of Traffic Officers on Road Safety pannels that will object to limits in areas they think are inapproppriate but the planners have the last say in it.
Once again I will state that the Police don't receive the benefits from speed cameras or other detection methods, except to pay for more camera sites and detection equipment (CAPPING OFF). They cannot use the money for any other purpose.
It really is a question here sort of 'dont shoot the messenger'
To be hated by the public is not something that really concerns me or probably many of those I work with. We are universally hated by quite wide spread sections of the public until they need our help. Many of them still hate us but use us anyway. Strange how attitudes generally then change.
Personally I didn't join the Police to be liked. I joined to try and make the place a little bit better for those that want to enjoy a peaceful life, uninterupted by scumbags and those that will unlawfully interfere with their law abiding activities.
You cannot please all of the people all of the time!
(or for that matter, these days even some of the people)
>> Edited by madcop on Sunday 21st July 18:42
your quite right its the jumped up local authority
and the best way too tell them what you think is write a note and rap it round a brick and trow it at you local mp window or write it on his car with paint striper.
errr, when the BiB aren't around, funny how everything on the road seems to sort itself out. So why do we need so many bloody traps everywhere? not like we are doing any harm at 90mph on the motorway.
For gods sake, the cops have a job to do - catching theives & murderers. Let them get on with it, and good will to them. Just don't let them try it on with ordinary people who are just going about their everyday lives.
It's pathetic what we have come to. Cameras all over the place. It is disgusting that we are being watched like this, how did it happen? christ, I keep hearing from the Pols that detection rates are up for "serious crime", so why do all the papers say that crime is soaring, and the only ones being caught are motorists? about time there was a reality check, and perspective broght back.
Just keep kids off the roads, and let us drive how we goddamn like, it isn't rocket science - motorways & a-roads are FOR WHEELED VEHICLES, NOT KIDS.
Once we get this dumb stupid "speed kills" thing knocked on the head we can carry on speeding in peace.
For gods sake, the cops have a job to do - catching theives & murderers. Let them get on with it, and good will to them. Just don't let them try it on with ordinary people who are just going about their everyday lives.
It's pathetic what we have come to. Cameras all over the place. It is disgusting that we are being watched like this, how did it happen? christ, I keep hearing from the Pols that detection rates are up for "serious crime", so why do all the papers say that crime is soaring, and the only ones being caught are motorists? about time there was a reality check, and perspective broght back.
Just keep kids off the roads, and let us drive how we goddamn like, it isn't rocket science - motorways & a-roads are FOR WHEELED VEHICLES, NOT KIDS.
Once we get this dumb stupid "speed kills" thing knocked on the head we can carry on speeding in peace.
quote:
To be hated by the public is not something that really concerns me or probably many of those I work with. We are universally hated by quite wide spread sections of the public until they need our help. Many of them still hate us but use us anyway. Strange how attitudes generally then change.
Personally I didn't join the Police to be liked. I joined to try and make the place a little bit better for those that want to enjoy a peaceful life, uninterupted by scumbags and those that will unlawfully interfere with their law abiding activities.
You cannot please all of the people all of the time!
(or for that matter, these days even some of the people)
Hi Madcop,
I'd be interested to know of your opinions and answers to these posts - www.seatcars.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7198 -
By your reading of these actual cases, would you feel that a "Don't Be So Nit-Picking And So Causing Anti-Police Feeling Course" would be a good idea to expand Police Training.
If this sort of Course is already in practise, then there seems to be a high failure rate in real life experience.
Let's face it, this sort of action by your colleagues alienates and causes so much resentment towards the Police from Joe Public, probably more than any other confrontational issues.
Your comments on the relevant Police Officer's professional behaviour in these individual cases are welcomed.
Cheers,
Brian
>> Edited by cuprabri on Sunday 21st July 23:30
>> Edited by cuprabri on Sunday 21st July 23:33
quote:
Hi Madcop,
I'd be interested to know of your opinions and answers to these posts - www.seatcars.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7198 -
I have read all of the posts in the link you supplied. I am in no position to comment on any of them as
1) I wasn,t there at the time.
2) There is only one side of what actually happened.
What I will say is that in some of the posts it would appear that there was some over zealous prosecution.
It might interest you to know that a lot of serious offences (criminal) are detected by stopping someone for a small infringement of traffic rules.
To fail to stop a vehicle with a defect late at night or to stop someone who is travelling too fast or has disobeyed a traffic sign would be to miss the opportunity of speaking to the driver and finding out what they are doing and why they are there.
From this point on, many of these stops are immediately confrontational. Most people are only stopped by the Police when something bad has happened. Therefore the person stopped is expecting
a) at the least advice (Usually resented)
b) a fixed penalty (allways resented)
c) Reported for summons ( resented and feared)
d) Arrested ( Petrified) (unless of outlaws calibre)
The attitude of the person stopped can and nearly always does, set the tone for the rest of the interaction between them.
I have on many occasions, stopped someone for a minor infringemant, intending to just advise them, when for no other reason than them having been stopped for a minor infringement, I am met by a torrent of abuse or suggestions as to how I should really be spending my time.
It is these sort of people that I tend to make endure a little longer, the pleasure of my company.
I have a favourite response for the sarcastic remark often made
" Cant you do something better than this like go and catch a few rapists, murderers or muggers"
Reply " Its funny you should pick up on that sir, Do you know that about ten years ago they had me on that stuff and I wasn't very good at it. They put me on this stuff and I am good at this "
Or " Rapist sir! That is a very serious offence. Why did you pick on that one? What have you got to tell me about a rape then sir?"
I am afraid dealing with the sorts of situations often encountered in traffic stops, you get to develop a huge repetoir of sarcasm to bat off the stupid and sometimes offensive remarks made to you.
Some of the instances quoted will undoubtedly have been as a result of being stopped by probationer constables. These officers have a huge portfolio of cases that they MUST deal with and evidence before they are confirmed in the rank. I am afraid that the motorist is what they cut their teeth on.
Another problem is that to be stopped by a young officer who may well be young enough to be your son/daughter, grandson/grandaughter, is something of a hard pill to swallow. Especially when they start to offer advice ( What do they know anyway?)
There is no easy answer to any of the posts in the link, suffice to say the one about the Rover 400 and the stop for being a terrorist suspect.
Terrorists do use all types of inconspicuous vehicles to transport themselves and their deadly equipment. It is not beyond the bounds of possibility that they had used a Rover 400 on that occasion.
The post about the guy who had from his unfortunate interaction, branded all coppers w
s and skivers, shaggers sickies etc is obviously entitled to his opinion. That people have this opinion of the Police is not a huge shock. I am afraid that over the years, Some officers have seen avenues to exploit the welfare systems that are in place to protect those that fall foul of occupational injury, whether physical or mental. Like the comment about joining the army and understanding that it may get mucky and realising that they have to deal with it.
How many soldiers actually get to see the mucky side of war? I realise a few more do these days but when you don a Police uniform, the minute you walk into the public domain, it is with you every minute you are at work. Situations where you are assaulted, abused, witness serious physical and mental trauma sometimes with fatal results, the abuse that people inflict on each other and expect you to resolve, all take their toll.
Nobody is press ganged into the Police Service. It is purely voluntary and those that do, go in with wide open eyes. Some cannot hack it and leave. Some hack it for many years before they cannot stomach anymore. The majority work hard and long hours for 30 years covering all the 3 shifts and then retire without screwing the system.
With many of these instances of tribunals and medical retirements that are exposed as scams in the press, they are widely publicised. There are many thousands of legitimate ones that aren't
What isn't widely publicised is the average length that Police pensions are paid to individual officers. It stands at between 5 and 7 years. 30 years of shift work takes it toll and many die young.
I and many of my colleagues have been badly assaulted while trying to apprehend criminals. It goes with the territory. I do not believe the comment that he wrestled with an offender bigger than him for 40 minutes which most Police officers would not do.
As I said before. Nobody joins the Police to be liked. It just isn't that sort of job. Even those that take on the friendlier positions such as home beat officers have those that dislike them.
The attitude I take is that if someone really deserves a ticket, court appearance or arrest then, I am probably going to see them only that once in my life ( unless they are local habituals ) so I don't really give a damn what they think of me. However to brand the whole of the Police Service the same is naive in the extreme. Unless they chose to dispute the facts then the second time we meet is in court!
I do however always try to be fair and consistent, which believe me, is not always easy. To fail to do so only attracts unecessary complaints.
I have though spent the last 22 years perfecting the art of sarcasm which I find a 'BLESSED RELIEF'
Sorry it has been such a long post but there was a lot to cover ( I probably haven't managed to though)
Wherever confrontation arises, there is likely to be animosity. More often than not, this is in the arena of traffic offences.
I look forwards to the many criticisms that follow
>> Edited by madcop on Monday 22 July 07:58
Very well put. I have never had any problems with the police and have always been treated politely and when stopped for speeding which was fair enough was told not to do it again.
In most jobs/carears after a few years you have heard most excuses and comments. A smile and a bit of wit keeps you sane.
Im not in the police but in my work when clients/people dispute charges/findings you try and help where you can. if they are polite and honest we can resolve a lot of things.
If they are abusive then you dont feel like helping and give as good as you get. (boss of my own firm big fish little puddle)
So a 'thank you' for doing a difficult job from a happy punter.
>> Edited by superlightr on Monday 22 July 14:04
In most jobs/carears after a few years you have heard most excuses and comments. A smile and a bit of wit keeps you sane.
Im not in the police but in my work when clients/people dispute charges/findings you try and help where you can. if they are polite and honest we can resolve a lot of things.
If they are abusive then you dont feel like helping and give as good as you get. (boss of my own firm big fish little puddle)
So a 'thank you' for doing a difficult job from a happy punter.
>> Edited by superlightr on Monday 22 July 14:04
How many soldiers actually get to see the mucky side of war?
I had an interesting chat (whilst waiting for appointment)with a RAF Medic, conversation turned to Sebrinica (spelling??)........
Hmm don't think you'll ever have to deal with the remains of 200 male muslims who the Serbs (bless 'em) had castrated in a small room......Quote "bollox and scrotum all over the place" kinda made me swallow hard a couple of times just thinking about it
Careful madcop, with statements like that people could be tempted to say if you don't like it leave.....
Anyway, I'm off for my tea!!
I had an interesting chat (whilst waiting for appointment)with a RAF Medic, conversation turned to Sebrinica (spelling??)........
Hmm don't think you'll ever have to deal with the remains of 200 male muslims who the Serbs (bless 'em) had castrated in a small room......Quote "bollox and scrotum all over the place" kinda made me swallow hard a couple of times just thinking about it
Careful madcop, with statements like that people could be tempted to say if you don't like it leave.....
Anyway, I'm off for my tea!!
quote:
Hmm don't think you'll ever have to deal with the remains of 200 male muslims who the Serbs (bless 'em) had castrated in a small room......Quote "bollox and scrotum all over the place" kinda made me swallow hard a couple of times just thinking about it
Careful madcop, with statements like that people could be tempted to say if you don't like it leave.....
Anyway, I'm off for my tea!!
Yes I agree, but what is the differnce between 200 and one except the number of course. I have seen mutilated bodies as do many Police officers day in day out. Children are especially difficult to come to terms with.
Many do eventually leave when they can't stomach it anymore. Some just resign, some need help and welfare as a result, much the same as in the armed forces.
10 years ago I went to a huge RTA on the M4 between Junction 13 and 14 in the fog. Over 60 vehicles involved and a large number of fatalities. I had to watch people burning to death. I know it wasn't deliberate but non the less horrifying.
Have a good Tea
The difference is massive when you are working under most UN mandates you are "peace keepers" not police man. It is a much harder pill to swallow when you walk out of a building full of mutilated bodies that have been subjected to the kind of horrors that would be front page material at home, to then come face to face with the perpitrator grinning and proudly waving his bollock knife. As a "peace keeper" he is as entitled to your protection as anyone.
I won't slag down you or the job you do as I know how hard it is but be very careful about how you defend it and dismiss those doing other "lesser jobs" Britain has been actively "peace keeping" all sorts of atrocities for the whole of the duration of your home service.
Oh yes and as for the Terrorist Rover 400 yep fair pull in my eyes but a Caterham 7 for the same reasons ??? I knopw it happened going into the city one night.
I won't slag down you or the job you do as I know how hard it is but be very careful about how you defend it and dismiss those doing other "lesser jobs" Britain has been actively "peace keeping" all sorts of atrocities for the whole of the duration of your home service.
Oh yes and as for the Terrorist Rover 400 yep fair pull in my eyes but a Caterham 7 for the same reasons ??? I knopw it happened going into the city one night.
. Thats why I am poor !!! quote:
I won't slag down you or the job you do as I know how hard it is but be very careful about how you defend it and dismiss those doing other "lesser jobs" Britain has been actively "peace keeping" all sorts of atrocities for the whole of the duration of your home service.
I wasn,t trying to defend it or in anyway lessen the jobs of anyone else. Merely trying to put across a point that is relative. Whether you sign the application for the Police, Nursing Doctor, Soldier, it is all volunatary.
Who is to say that a single mutilated body is any less distressing to some people than a host of mutilated bodies to others. And the point about protecting the perpetrator. Just remember Sarah Payne and the Bulger cases. Do you think that having to protect them is any less sickening than the knife waving smiling Serb. IMO it isn't
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