Perverting the course of justice
Discussion
Out of curiousity, if you were driving within the speed limit, and got a pull for broken side light, and old bill saw your Radar detector/ laser blinder/hitech gadget..
1) how many cops would say anything about it?
2) could you get done for "perverting the course of justice" ? (bearing in mind you aren't speeding)
I can't see the second one being able to stick, because if you are breaking no laws (apart from lighting vehicle defect), then how can you be perverting any? however I'm not plod, so don't know how it all works. Can any of you lads enlighten me?
rgds.
1) how many cops would say anything about it?
2) could you get done for "perverting the course of justice" ? (bearing in mind you aren't speeding)
I can't see the second one being able to stick, because if you are breaking no laws (apart from lighting vehicle defect), then how can you be perverting any? however I'm not plod, so don't know how it all works. Can any of you lads enlighten me?
rgds.
I too have blinder and have given this some thought. If say you are speeding and the blinder does its job, but you get pulled. Surely to do you for perverting the course of justice they would have to prove you were speeding at the time. But if the blinder is working they cannot prove your speed. The only thing I do know is I don't want to be the first test case !
well, I haven't got one *yet*, but I was wondering how it would all pan out if stopped. Bearing in mind the eleventh commandment "thou shall not get caught", if you can avoid a pull, then surely you have nothing to fear?
Obviously you shouldn't drive like an idiot in towns, but NSL roads are fair places to welly it now and then, and should be left well alone by the BIB.
Absolutely mad, but the increase in 2001 from MURDER is actually more than the percentage shift in road-kills.
Seems like someone priorities are a bit wrong if knife & gun related deaths are UP as well as road deaths. Clearly cameras aren't working, and equally clearly they are happy to take the money. God knows what they do with it, but it ain't catching muggers & murderers. More likely it's to give legal aid to Tony Martins burglars....
C.
Obviously you shouldn't drive like an idiot in towns, but NSL roads are fair places to welly it now and then, and should be left well alone by the BIB.
Absolutely mad, but the increase in 2001 from MURDER is actually more than the percentage shift in road-kills.
Seems like someone priorities are a bit wrong if knife & gun related deaths are UP as well as road deaths. Clearly cameras aren't working, and equally clearly they are happy to take the money. God knows what they do with it, but it ain't catching muggers & murderers. More likely it's to give legal aid to Tony Martins burglars....
C.
I suppose the first question is to any of the BiB out there. Have they every encountered on of these devices "in the field". Also how common is it for a laser gun not to geta speed. Is the avergae plod going think "Ah this guy has a blinder installed." Although mine is installed in the grill and is not obvious to the casual observer, if you know what you are looking for it cannot be hidden..
According to the ABD - and an interview they ran with a chief constable - there is no legal precedent for a laser diffuser fitted and working to a car.
It has never been tested and so far the police have warned rather than try a prosecution - this is because the cps lost the gps/speed camera argument since they were passive systems - ie don't transmit.
since then they have reluctant to try it in court.
AFAIK - most diffusers are passive and can be really well hidden - ie behind grills and wired under dashboards - should be hard to find.
It has never been tested and so far the police have warned rather than try a prosecution - this is because the cps lost the gps/speed camera argument since they were passive systems - ie don't transmit.
since then they have reluctant to try it in court.
AFAIK - most diffusers are passive and can be really well hidden - ie behind grills and wired under dashboards - should be hard to find.
quote:Surely a passive system can only warn you that you have been illuminated by a laser - by which time it is far too late for you to react and is therefore about as useful as a condom in a maternity ward.
AFAIK - most diffusers are passive and can be really well hidden - ie behind grills and wired under dashboards - should be hard to find.
An active system is one that will respond to the threat - ie. will return a jamming signal to ensure that the speed gun cannot get a reading (ie. "blinder" - the clue is in the name!)
Unlike the GPS systems, I think a pretty good case could be made for perverting the course of 'justice' (sic - I almost choke on the word 'justice' in this context) or obstructing a Police Officer in his duties, as you are actively interfering with his equipment (ooer).
Don't get me wrong - I'd love to fit one of these to my car. However, I can't help taking the view that one would be on pretty dodgy ground using it.
Detection is the name of the game!
If its hidden well then it probably wouldnt be found.
The offence would probably be "obstruct police"
How do they work then? Can the officer tell his laser's been screwed? Does the laser show no speed or does it go haywire? If the later then you may still get pulled as it would show you were operating a device. Then the hunt would be on!
There might be further offences under the wireless and telegraphy act but thats getting technical!
If its hidden well then it probably wouldnt be found.
The offence would probably be "obstruct police"
How do they work then? Can the officer tell his laser's been screwed? Does the laser show no speed or does it go haywire? If the later then you may still get pulled as it would show you were operating a device. Then the hunt would be on!
There might be further offences under the wireless and telegraphy act but thats getting technical!
quote:
I suppose the first question is to any of the BiB out there. Have they every encountered on of these devices "in the field". Also how common is it for a laser gun not to geta speed. Is the avergae plod going think "Ah this guy has a blinder installed." Although mine is installed in the grill and is not obvious to the casual observer, if you know what you are looking for it cannot be hidden..
i too would love to know about this - been tempted with a blinder et al. but those same q's are in my head.
anyone else got a good/bad tale with jammers?
also - has anyone given thought to a k-band jammer for Gatsos, or am i thinking up something unworkable here?
quote:
quote:
I suppose the first question is to any of the BiB out there. Have they every encountered on of these devices "in the field". Also how common is it for a laser gun not to geta speed. Is the avergae plod going think "Ah this guy has a blinder installed." Although mine is installed in the grill and is not obvious to the casual observer, if you know what you are looking for it cannot be hidden..
i too would love to know about this - been tempted with a blinder et al. but those same q's are in my head.
anyone else got a good/bad tale with jammers?
also - has anyone given thought to a k-band jammer for Gatsos, or am i thinking up something unworkable here?
I’ve been lasered numerous times by the Northants SCAMera team. But by some amazing luck, on only one occasion was I actually speeding and even then I was only very slightly exceeding the limit when lasered from behind. My Target 850 jammers have always fired, but I can’t be 100% certain that they worked as I’ve thought it unwise to stop and ask the Fu
ing Bted with the camera if he got a reading. Although I presume they worked on the one occasion I was speeding, unless I wasn’t quite going fast enough to warrant a ticket. My jammers are quite difficult to spot. I’ve cut out and peeled off small piece of the black part of one character on each number plate. Then attached a jammer to the back of each plate so the lens is over the hole. The lens is very dark in colour so it’s virtually invisible from more than a few metres away. On two occasions I’ve had police looking at my car and neither of them seemed to spot it – although a policeman who knew what he was looking for probably would if he could examine the car close up.
Radar jammers are available from www.ca-automotive.co.uk but I don’t know if they jam gatsos or just the hairdryer type guns.
I read that one of the jammer systems uses the same laser emitter that is used for garage door opening systems ... why you'd need one front and back might need a bit of explaining.
Anyone know what wavelength these lasers work at? I assume its somewhere in the infra red. If its almost visible, then it'll probably go through glass and clear plastic, but if its at longer wavelengths you might find license plates and glass will block it.
Anyone know what wavelength these lasers work at? I assume its somewhere in the infra red. If its almost visible, then it'll probably go through glass and clear plastic, but if its at longer wavelengths you might find license plates and glass will block it.
quote:
I read that one of the jammer systems uses the same laser emitter that is used for garage door opening systems ... why you'd need one front and back might need a bit of explaining.
Anyone know what wavelength these lasers work at? I assume its somewhere in the infra red. If its almost visible, then it'll probably go through glass and clear plastic, but if its at longer wavelengths you might find license plates and glass will block it.
Easy to explain: “Officer I need one on the front and back because usually I reverse into the garage but sometimes I drive in forwards when I need to get stuff out of the boot”
The Target 850 jammer has a 904 nanometer (infra red) laser diode which is same frequency as used but most laser speed guns.
I don’t think that having it firing through a clear part of a numberplate causes a problem. This is how the supplier I bought mine from recommended it to be mounted.
The jammers are supplied with a piece of laser sensitive film which changes colour when exposed to the laser beam so you can test your installation. Firing a camera flash at the jammer creates enough IR to set it off, then you hold the film in front of it to check it’s firing OK. I’ve tried this with a jammer both behind a plate and not behind a plate, the effect on the film seems to be the same. But if any physicists out there know differently I would be interested to hear their views.
quote:
Pervert the course ....... is a serious offence and in all reality from the scenarios given obstruct Police would be a more apropriate offence.
hi John, the bit that mystifies me - is "would it be obstruction even if you are not speeding" ? eg, is possession of such a device (wired up) illegal?
cheers, Carl
quote:
I read that one of the jammer systems uses the same laser emitter that is used for garage door opening systems ... why you'd need one front and back might need a bit of explaining.
you need the one one the fron to drive in to the garage, then the one on the back to reverse out (unless you have a huuuuuge garage that is!!!)
"Gosh officer, you know I never thought of putting the sensor inside the garage on THAT wall, I just put it on the garage door
>> Edited by Graham and Rosie on Tuesday 16th July 15:42
I personally have not come across a jammer in use or fitted, I would imagine it would not be too difficult to get it home at court, if it did get through the CPS, but there again thats what 'test cases' are all about. My views re detectors, is fine have one if you want, I have caught a few who were using them (ie done for speed not for having one in the car) some were when I was using laser and others have been with VASCAR or following checks. As far as jammers go, I feel that this is oversteping the mark as it is actually interfering with the equipments function. If it were in use and I caught someone using it I would follow it up along the lines of obstruction, not in use I would leave it with verbal advice.
Mr hertsbiker your comments re murder compared with road deaths are a bad comparrison, for a start the number of murders is a small fraction of the number of road deaths/ injuries. Further, it is very difficult to Police against murder as the majority are committed by persons known to the victim, ie husband/wife. In addition Myself and a colleague were first on the scene of a recent murder and passed on the info which led to the offenders capture 1hr later, so we do have some priorities over 'potting' motorists. Hope this helps with your decision with wahat to buy/fit.
>> Edited by john robson on Wednesday 17th July 09:25
>> Edited by john robson on Wednesday 17th July 09:30
Mr hertsbiker your comments re murder compared with road deaths are a bad comparrison, for a start the number of murders is a small fraction of the number of road deaths/ injuries. Further, it is very difficult to Police against murder as the majority are committed by persons known to the victim, ie husband/wife. In addition Myself and a colleague were first on the scene of a recent murder and passed on the info which led to the offenders capture 1hr later, so we do have some priorities over 'potting' motorists. Hope this helps with your decision with wahat to buy/fit.
>> Edited by john robson on Wednesday 17th July 09:25
>> Edited by john robson on Wednesday 17th July 09:30
Hello John, you don't have to call me mister or anything - all being equals in PH land?
Anyway, I don't know if it is such a bad comparision. Now I'm not going to make the mistake in blaming the Police, but since Laboring have been in power, road deaths have gone up & down as trends do.. however, most of all other crime is up.
Not blaming you guys at all - you're just following orders as best you can.
rgds.
Anyway, I don't know if it is such a bad comparision. Now I'm not going to make the mistake in blaming the Police, but since Laboring have been in power, road deaths have gone up & down as trends do.. however, most of all other crime is up.
Not blaming you guys at all - you're just following orders as best you can.
rgds.
John hits the nail on the head - The CPS would need to bring the action through the courts, and they have better things to do than worry about test cases on radar jammers.
Speeding tickets are fixed penalty tickets and even those that do go to court do not involve the CPS.
The chances of a case ever getting through are very slim.
Speeding tickets are fixed penalty tickets and even those that do go to court do not involve the CPS.
The chances of a case ever getting through are very slim.
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