Lydiate Ash island
Discussion
My brother in law had an accident on this island a year back which is just about to go to court. I'm not convinced he's in the right but neither am I sure where the blame lies.
He was travelling from Stourbridge and wanted to take the 3rd to A38 Bromsgrove. He went in the inside lane an passed the M5 North and was crossing the A38 Birmingham exit when a car hit him turning up the A38 Bham exit.
Now, if Google earth was right then my bro in law is to blame as it clearly shows the inside lane is for M5 North and A38 Bham ONLY whilst the middle lane, where the guy was who struck him, shows A38 N and S and M5 South. 18 months ago the island changed signage and now the signs when approaching from Stourbridge just show inside lane as straight arrow and middle lane as straight and right arrow. However, I think that whilst the signs have changed the lane discipline hasn't.
Who is to blame because personally I don't think the island is correctly signed as it presently stands.
In summary: if you travel on the inside lane of the island (nearest the exit) from Stourbridge through to Bromsgrove and get hit by a car turning up the A38 N from the middle lane who is to blame.
He was travelling from Stourbridge and wanted to take the 3rd to A38 Bromsgrove. He went in the inside lane an passed the M5 North and was crossing the A38 Birmingham exit when a car hit him turning up the A38 Bham exit.
Now, if Google earth was right then my bro in law is to blame as it clearly shows the inside lane is for M5 North and A38 Bham ONLY whilst the middle lane, where the guy was who struck him, shows A38 N and S and M5 South. 18 months ago the island changed signage and now the signs when approaching from Stourbridge just show inside lane as straight arrow and middle lane as straight and right arrow. However, I think that whilst the signs have changed the lane discipline hasn't.
Who is to blame because personally I don't think the island is correctly signed as it presently stands.
In summary: if you travel on the inside lane of the island (nearest the exit) from Stourbridge through to Bromsgrove and get hit by a car turning up the A38 N from the middle lane who is to blame.
You'd be better off with this in speed plod and the law, as "Elroy Blue" is a West Mercia traffic officer, who will know the law and that island well.
I know it quite well, the island, and from what I remember, what you write is quite correct with reference to the markings, but they are/were very very worn, and it is terribly marked, and very easy to find yourself out of position.
For those not from the area, straight over ish, A38 south, from the direction asked about, is the 3rd exit.
I have seen what you've described occur many times, the manouvre, not accidents, and to be honest, there is no excuse for anyone to drive into anyone else, it is lack of foresight on the people using the center lane to exit A38 north (Brum), usually at break neck speed in some diesel piece of crap or other.
I am usually coming from the M5 north when I want to exit A38 south, and I've experienced, many times, people cutting across the front of me when I'm in the center lane, as I will be , following the road markings, so they can exit A38 North.
What has he been charged with ?
It all sounds a bit 50/50 to me, yes he is out of position, but he's there to be seen, we all make mistakes.
I know it quite well, the island, and from what I remember, what you write is quite correct with reference to the markings, but they are/were very very worn, and it is terribly marked, and very easy to find yourself out of position.
For those not from the area, straight over ish, A38 south, from the direction asked about, is the 3rd exit.
I have seen what you've described occur many times, the manouvre, not accidents, and to be honest, there is no excuse for anyone to drive into anyone else, it is lack of foresight on the people using the center lane to exit A38 north (Brum), usually at break neck speed in some diesel piece of crap or other.
I am usually coming from the M5 north when I want to exit A38 south, and I've experienced, many times, people cutting across the front of me when I'm in the center lane, as I will be , following the road markings, so they can exit A38 North.
What has he been charged with ?
It all sounds a bit 50/50 to me, yes he is out of position, but he's there to be seen, we all make mistakes.
You're correct regards the chap hitting him but I feel my bro-in-law may be more in the wrong as the inside lane shouldn't be used to negotiate 3 lanes without turning off.
When approaching from Stourbridge the new sign now shows straight on arrow for the inside lane, straight on and right for the centre and right (I believe) for the outside lane.
I've tried several times to explain to him that straight on means M5 N or A38 N and NOT A38 S as this is a right turn and the centre lane should be used. The other guy I believe was in the correct lane (centre for straight on A38 N) but is wrong to have hit my bro-in-law car that was continuing around the island albeit in the wrong lane.
They are going to court to settle the insurance as both are claiming the other is wrong.
When approaching from Stourbridge the new sign now shows straight on arrow for the inside lane, straight on and right for the centre and right (I believe) for the outside lane.
I've tried several times to explain to him that straight on means M5 N or A38 N and NOT A38 S as this is a right turn and the centre lane should be used. The other guy I believe was in the correct lane (centre for straight on A38 N) but is wrong to have hit my bro-in-law car that was continuing around the island albeit in the wrong lane.
They are going to court to settle the insurance as both are claiming the other is wrong.
Edited by Moley RUFC on Sunday 30th December 22:24
I can show you a few junctions where the road sign(s) say one thing, and the road markings another.
They are both a bit silly for actually hitting each other, but that is a very busy and in my opinion a very poorly laid out island, Jnc 6 is just as bad.
I see people going around islands in the nearside lane so often, and just to top it off, and this is true I assure you, I failed an IAM Observer of all things, on his requalification, for doing just that, he argued the toss with me endlessly, but failed he stayed.
If someone supposedly teaching advanced driving to others thinks it is ok, we're all doomed lol.
They are both a bit silly for actually hitting each other, but that is a very busy and in my opinion a very poorly laid out island, Jnc 6 is just as bad.
I see people going around islands in the nearside lane so often, and just to top it off, and this is true I assure you, I failed an IAM Observer of all things, on his requalification, for doing just that, he argued the toss with me endlessly, but failed he stayed.
If someone supposedly teaching advanced driving to others thinks it is ok, we're all doomed lol.
some history here
http://www.photobydjnorton.com/OtherPlaces/M5WestO...
and here
http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title...
http://goo.gl/maps/B6cui
How do you embed google maps images ?
[pic]
<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=52.378013,-2.046182&spn=0.004165,0.004946&t=h&z=18&output=embed"></iframe><br /><small><a href="http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=52.378013,-2.046182&spn=0.004165,0.004946&t=h&z=18&source=embed" style="color:#0000FF;text-align:left">View Larger Map</a></small> [/pic]
http://www.photobydjnorton.com/OtherPlaces/M5WestO...
and here
http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/index.php?title...
http://goo.gl/maps/B6cui
How do you embed google maps images ?
[pic]
<iframe width="425" height="350" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" src="http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=52.378013,-2.046182&spn=0.004165,0.004946&t=h&z=18&output=embed"></iframe><br /><small><a href="http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ll=52.378013,-2.046182&spn=0.004165,0.004946&t=h&z=18&source=embed" style="color:#0000FF;text-align:left">View Larger Map</a></small> [/pic]
If you follow the signs I think the island is fine, but a lot of people seem unable to use lanes on an island nowadays. On that island I have a problem with people from the middle lane crossing into my lane without looking to enter the M5 South slip road when they should be exiting towards Bromsgrove 
IIRC, the first lane as you approach from Stourbridge is exit to M5 North and A38 B'ham, middle lane is A38 B'ham and A38 Bromsgrove turnoff, outside lane is M5 South. Not sure if that helps!
IIRC, the first lane as you approach from Stourbridge is exit to M5 North and A38 B'ham, middle lane is A38 B'ham and A38 Bromsgrove turnoff, outside lane is M5 South. Not sure if that helps!
Remember the days when you didn't have direction lanes on islands ?
Back in those days you read the highway code and used common sense, and if my memory of that island is correct, coming from the direction he was, his intended exit is at or about twelve o'clock, so he wouldn't have been so wrong using lane one, allowing people to exit from lane two is the major cause of this particular incident.
Trying (and quite often failing) to improve traffic flow has caused a lot of the confusion these days.
You can approach an island now and need "local knowledge" on your approach.
Back in those days you read the highway code and used common sense, and if my memory of that island is correct, coming from the direction he was, his intended exit is at or about twelve o'clock, so he wouldn't have been so wrong using lane one, allowing people to exit from lane two is the major cause of this particular incident.
Trying (and quite often failing) to improve traffic flow has caused a lot of the confusion these days.
You can approach an island now and need "local knowledge" on your approach.
I know the roundabout well. If you want the A38 south from Sandy Lane it's middle lane approach, middle lane past M5 on ramp, at M5 off ramp/A38 North you can stay in the middle or move to the left as both allow you to exit to the A38 south. Prior to this the left lane is for exiting A38 north only so I can see how a joining car could be confused.
Green is good, red is bad:
I can't say for sure who the court will blame but your brother was in the wrong lane.
Green is good, red is bad:
I can't say for sure who the court will blame but your brother was in the wrong lane.
What you have failed to show in your picture, is your green line is also allowed to exit A38 north, which is as much "wrong", in my opinion, as the chap taking the red line, and where the conflict has arisen in this particular situation.
It is typical of that, and other islands, you get the same issue when joining from A38 south and wanting to exit M5 north.
It is of course an attempt to ease traffic congestion, but encourages conflict, as I've said earlier, whilst taking your green line, I've many times, had vehicles exit to A38 north from the third lane, which at that point is intended to be M5 south.
It is typical of that, and other islands, you get the same issue when joining from A38 south and wanting to exit M5 north.
It is of course an attempt to ease traffic congestion, but encourages conflict, as I've said earlier, whilst taking your green line, I've many times, had vehicles exit to A38 north from the third lane, which at that point is intended to be M5 south.
Nigel Worc's said:
What you have failed to show in your picture, is your green line is also allowed to exit A38 north, which is as much "wrong", in my opinion, as the chap taking the red line, and where the conflict has arisen in this particular situation.
It is typical of that, and other islands, you get the same issue when joining from A38 south and wanting to exit M5 north.
It is of course an attempt to ease traffic congestion, but encourages conflict, as I've said earlier, whilst taking your green line, I've many times, had vehicles exit to A38 north from the third lane, which at that point is intended to be M5 south.
I didn't show it because in this case, that's not where the conflict arose. From the point of view of someone waiting to join the island from the A38 north junction and looking left - if a car is in the middle lane I must wait because although he can turn up the A38 north, he can also continue round the island. If a car is in the left lane he may not continue and must only exit A38 north, so I may join the island. The fact that both the middle and left lanes may exit A38 north does not effect this as only the middle lane prior to the A38 north allows access to the A38 south.It is typical of that, and other islands, you get the same issue when joining from A38 south and wanting to exit M5 north.
It is of course an attempt to ease traffic congestion, but encourages conflict, as I've said earlier, whilst taking your green line, I've many times, had vehicles exit to A38 north from the third lane, which at that point is intended to be M5 south.
Just for interest, they will be spending approx. £11 million of hard earner tax payers money on sorting this roundabout before 2014. Not that it helps the OP, but signage should be improved in the near future.
I use this roundabout regularly, and I would say that approximately 1 time in every 10 I see incorrect lane discipline. Accidents, I would guess are a pretty common occurrence at this particular roundabout.
I use this roundabout regularly, and I would say that approximately 1 time in every 10 I see incorrect lane discipline. Accidents, I would guess are a pretty common occurrence at this particular roundabout.
quote=SimonMaidenhead]Just a simple check on google maps will prove he's in the wrong lane from the moment he entered the roundabout, irrespective of the number of exits. The chap who hit your BIL was in the correct lane to come off at that junction or the one previously.
[/quote]
I apologise for not saying earlier but the lane markings have been covered over about 18 months ago (I think I'm right here) but there is now a road sign as you approach from the road where both my bro in law and other car approached the island.
I have explained the sign above and that I believe it is still the same as previously marked but without the road markings (again I'm happy to be corrected)
In summary of the actual accident.
Car 1 - Brother in law
Car 2 - Other car involved.
•Car 1 and 2 approach island from Sandy Lane, Stourbridge
• Car 1 goes to inside lane, car 2 to middle lane.
• both cars continue in this order past M5N exit and past A38N exit where car 2 turns in to car 1 as car 2 wants to exit A38N. Car 1 plans to continue round to A38 S (3rd exit)
I'm not site what the traffic light situation was on all areas of exits and whether they both drove straight on to the island on green and didn't have to stop but I don't think this matters.
As I've mentioned above the court case is a civil affair to determine blame.
[/quote]
I apologise for not saying earlier but the lane markings have been covered over about 18 months ago (I think I'm right here) but there is now a road sign as you approach from the road where both my bro in law and other car approached the island.
I have explained the sign above and that I believe it is still the same as previously marked but without the road markings (again I'm happy to be corrected)
In summary of the actual accident.
Car 1 - Brother in law
Car 2 - Other car involved.
•Car 1 and 2 approach island from Sandy Lane, Stourbridge
• Car 1 goes to inside lane, car 2 to middle lane.
• both cars continue in this order past M5N exit and past A38N exit where car 2 turns in to car 1 as car 2 wants to exit A38N. Car 1 plans to continue round to A38 S (3rd exit)
I'm not site what the traffic light situation was on all areas of exits and whether they both drove straight on to the island on green and didn't have to stop but I don't think this matters.
As I've mentioned above the court case is a civil affair to determine blame.
Moley RUFC said:
It's a civil court to decide blame for insurance reasons as both parties believe they are right. I think both will get blame.
My bro in law for being in the wrong lane and the other guy for hitting him.
Thoughts?
Playing the side of the other chap for a second, I was driving round the roundabout following lane procedure and signs when some idiot came screaming up the inside of me and drove into the side of my car My bro in law for being in the wrong lane and the other guy for hitting him.
Thoughts?
SimonMaidenhead said:
Playing the side of the other chap for a second, I was driving round the roundabout following lane procedure and signs when some idiot came screaming up the inside of me and drove into the side of my car
Too true, and I'm sure he may have used this lane. He has explained that my brother in law was an Eastern European with a Polish accent. He's from Stourbridge.
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