Discussion
Morning all.
I'm looking for some help and advice if anyone has any.
I received a NIP in the post this morning for "dangerous driving / careless or inconsiderate driving", would you believe it!?!
And here's the what happened: I clipped wing mirrors with someone.
That's it! He then decided to pursue me for a while, driving behind me flashing lights and indicating that he wanted me to pull over - I found his behaviour slightly threatening, so I didn't stop because for all I know he has a baseball bat in his car and a short temper. So I just carried on, with the intention of driving to a police station if he continued to follow me. He didn't.
But he clearly got my registration plate and went to a police station. I didn't get his because I was concentrating on driving.
From where I was sitting there was no damage to his car - my mirror folded in in the contact which obviously absorbed all the energy, and there is barely a mark on my mirror, so I don't see how there is any
on his (the casing was certainly intact).
However his nearside mirror was clearly damaged from a previous incident, so I assumed this guy obviously had a chip on his shoulder about these things.
It's just bloody annoying...
I think my best course of action is to go to the police station I have been NIPped from and find out what this guy has reported. I would be surprised if there is any damage to his vehicle. My defence is that I found his behaviour threatening and I thought I might endanger myself by stopping. I intended to drive to a police station if he had continued to follow me. This is a reasonable defence to me for what was a very minor error of judgement,on both our parts I think.
Any help of my best next step gratefully received.
Moom.
I'm looking for some help and advice if anyone has any.
I received a NIP in the post this morning for "dangerous driving / careless or inconsiderate driving", would you believe it!?!
And here's the what happened: I clipped wing mirrors with someone.
That's it! He then decided to pursue me for a while, driving behind me flashing lights and indicating that he wanted me to pull over - I found his behaviour slightly threatening, so I didn't stop because for all I know he has a baseball bat in his car and a short temper. So I just carried on, with the intention of driving to a police station if he continued to follow me. He didn't.
But he clearly got my registration plate and went to a police station. I didn't get his because I was concentrating on driving.
From where I was sitting there was no damage to his car - my mirror folded in in the contact which obviously absorbed all the energy, and there is barely a mark on my mirror, so I don't see how there is any
on his (the casing was certainly intact).
However his nearside mirror was clearly damaged from a previous incident, so I assumed this guy obviously had a chip on his shoulder about these things.
It's just bloody annoying...
I think my best course of action is to go to the police station I have been NIPped from and find out what this guy has reported. I would be surprised if there is any damage to his vehicle. My defence is that I found his behaviour threatening and I thought I might endanger myself by stopping. I intended to drive to a police station if he had continued to follow me. This is a reasonable defence to me for what was a very minor error of judgement,on both our parts I think.
Any help of my best next step gratefully received.
Moom.
Sounds like a fairly sensible course of action to me. I'd've thought that the CPS would have better things to do though than prosecute something so trivial (like speeding I suppose!).
Any witnesses? Sounds like it's only his word against yours - in which case surely no case? - but on the other hand if someone in his car testifies that you cut the corner or were straying onto his lane you might have a problem.
How about making a complaint yourself about the intimidation you received?
Any witnesses? Sounds like it's only his word against yours - in which case surely no case? - but on the other hand if someone in his car testifies that you cut the corner or were straying onto his lane you might have a problem.
How about making a complaint yourself about the intimidation you received?
It is standard policy to NIP someone who has been involved in a 'non stop' RTA which is what you had been involved in
It is always policy to NIP for ALL the relevant (Dangerous, Careless, Inconsiderate)offences even though clashing mirrors is minor and the circumstances probably the same.
Intentions are unfortunately not good enough.
Your mitigation that you did not stop because of the aggressive driver flashing and following, may lessen any punishment meted by the court. However
1. You should have stopped
2. If you didnt, YOU MUST report it as soon as practicable to a Police Officer or Police Station and in any case within 24 hours of the accident.
( This means if you are driving past a Police Station, or Police officer, on route home and you do not stop and report it, you have not complied).
3. The reason you state that you thought that no damage was caused to the other vehicle is not reasonable as you cannot possibly know.
4. Even though you didnt have the Index plate of the other car, it is no defence to not report it.
Just the location, time, colour of the vehicle and the make and type if known, would have been sufficient and availed you of all further obligations.
5. I am afraid you may well be severely dealt with if this gets to court as Magistrates always think there is something sinister in peoples reasons for not stopping ( Alcohol/Drugs/Crime).
6. The only defence you could possibly make in these circumstances to negate your liability would be to convince the investigating officer and the court that you were unaware that an accident had occurred.
Hope this helps
best of luck
It is always policy to NIP for ALL the relevant (Dangerous, Careless, Inconsiderate)offences even though clashing mirrors is minor and the circumstances probably the same.
Intentions are unfortunately not good enough.
Your mitigation that you did not stop because of the aggressive driver flashing and following, may lessen any punishment meted by the court. However
1. You should have stopped
2. If you didnt, YOU MUST report it as soon as practicable to a Police Officer or Police Station and in any case within 24 hours of the accident.
( This means if you are driving past a Police Station, or Police officer, on route home and you do not stop and report it, you have not complied).
3. The reason you state that you thought that no damage was caused to the other vehicle is not reasonable as you cannot possibly know.
4. Even though you didnt have the Index plate of the other car, it is no defence to not report it.
Just the location, time, colour of the vehicle and the make and type if known, would have been sufficient and availed you of all further obligations.
5. I am afraid you may well be severely dealt with if this gets to court as Magistrates always think there is something sinister in peoples reasons for not stopping ( Alcohol/Drugs/Crime).
6. The only defence you could possibly make in these circumstances to negate your liability would be to convince the investigating officer and the court that you were unaware that an accident had occurred.
Hope this helps
best of luck
I think you've been unlucky in that you jousted with someone prepared to take the mirror-clip to the Police. At what sort of speed was the incident? If you were just crawling down a narrow street with parked cars and clipped him coming the other way, then that's understandable. If, however, you were overtaking him at 60mph and had to squeeze in to avoid a collision with an oncoming vehicle, then that's something else. The latter of these (hypothetical) scenarios would surely be considered dangerous/careless driving.
If your mirror suffered some damage (albeit "barely a mark") then it's reasonable to assume that his did too.
But you haven't been accused of failing to stop - but for dangerous/careless driving. You need to come up with a reason for the collision of mirrors, surely? It's my guess that the Police have assumed you're the guilty party (when it could have been either/both of you) simply because you failed to stop/report.
Ian.
quote:
there was no damage to his car
...
there is barely a mark on my mirror
If your mirror suffered some damage (albeit "barely a mark") then it's reasonable to assume that his did too.
quote:
My defence is that I found his behaviour threatening and I thought I might endanger myself by stopping.
But you haven't been accused of failing to stop - but for dangerous/careless driving. You need to come up with a reason for the collision of mirrors, surely? It's my guess that the Police have assumed you're the guilty party (when it could have been either/both of you) simply because you failed to stop/report.
Ian.
quote:
From where I was sitting there was no damage to his car - my mirror folded in in the contact which obviously absorbed all the energy, and there is barely a mark on my mirror, so I don't see how there is any
on his (the casing was certainly intact).
However his nearside mirror was clearly damaged from a previous incident, so I assumed this guy obviously had a chip on his shoulder about these things.
quote]
How do you know about the casing being intact and there being marks from previous incidents? was it a very slow speed incident?
Thanks for the input.
When I looked in my rear view mirror, the other car didn't appear to have stopped, but since he was approaching a T-junction it was difficult to tell. His mirror appeared to be wholly intact and there was no debris on the road.
There are some very light marks on my mirror, but I cannot say that they were caused by the incident as they may have been there already.
Since my mirror folded I assumed it took the brunt of any damage caused by the clip.
The incident occured at no more than 30mph, and I must have mis-judged the space available for us to pass each other, but by the time I realised the other car wasn't going to move over to allow more room it was too late to abort the manouvre safely.
I am not being prosecuted for failing to stop. I don't consider our clash of mirrors to be dangerous driving, perhaps "careless" that I mis-judged a gap but receiving points/fine for this seems a bit much.
I understand now why failing to stop and report (even later) was unwise, but I am very wary of stopping to be greeting by an angry driver, it's happened to me before where I have been threatened by "road rage" drivers.
Moom.
>> Edited by moomin on Tuesday 18th June 12:01
When I looked in my rear view mirror, the other car didn't appear to have stopped, but since he was approaching a T-junction it was difficult to tell. His mirror appeared to be wholly intact and there was no debris on the road.
There are some very light marks on my mirror, but I cannot say that they were caused by the incident as they may have been there already.
Since my mirror folded I assumed it took the brunt of any damage caused by the clip.
The incident occured at no more than 30mph, and I must have mis-judged the space available for us to pass each other, but by the time I realised the other car wasn't going to move over to allow more room it was too late to abort the manouvre safely.
I am not being prosecuted for failing to stop. I don't consider our clash of mirrors to be dangerous driving, perhaps "careless" that I mis-judged a gap but receiving points/fine for this seems a bit much.
I understand now why failing to stop and report (even later) was unwise, but I am very wary of stopping to be greeting by an angry driver, it's happened to me before where I have been threatened by "road rage" drivers.
Moom.
>> Edited by moomin on Tuesday 18th June 12:01
>How do you know about the casing being intact and
>there being marks from previous incidents? was it a
>very slow speed incident?
I know my mirror is fine.
I know the others cars mirror casing was wholly intact
(as far as I could tell) and his other mirror was damaged, because I saw when he was following me.
It was relatively low speed. No more than 30mph as I had just rounded a junction.
>there being marks from previous incidents? was it a
>very slow speed incident?
I know my mirror is fine.
I know the others cars mirror casing was wholly intact
(as far as I could tell) and his other mirror was damaged, because I saw when he was following me.
It was relatively low speed. No more than 30mph as I had just rounded a junction.
Sounds like a total bugger that, Moomin..
The CPS can't get their act together though even when there is a case to be made, so plead not guilty by letter and at the plea hearing, and expect a No Further Action letter the day before the trial.
Finger crossed.
Madcop - I know you stated the rules as they stand but in the circumstances as we know them, do you really think trying to do the guy for whatever they can (due care/dangerous/picking nose) is reasonable?
If Moomin gets done for this it'll only serve to damage the image of the courts, CPS and police even further with me, and probably with others here too. The further our respect for the police and judiciary are eroded by pursuing and prosecuting ordinary people like this, the closer we'll come to being as bad as the scrotes in terms of inclination to act with impunity. Hence law enforcement becomes even more difficult.
>> Edited by CarZee on Tuesday 18th June 14:25
The CPS can't get their act together though even when there is a case to be made, so plead not guilty by letter and at the plea hearing, and expect a No Further Action letter the day before the trial.
Finger crossed.
Madcop - I know you stated the rules as they stand but in the circumstances as we know them, do you really think trying to do the guy for whatever they can (due care/dangerous/picking nose) is reasonable?
If Moomin gets done for this it'll only serve to damage the image of the courts, CPS and police even further with me, and probably with others here too. The further our respect for the police and judiciary are eroded by pursuing and prosecuting ordinary people like this, the closer we'll come to being as bad as the scrotes in terms of inclination to act with impunity. Hence law enforcement becomes even more difficult.
>> Edited by CarZee on Tuesday 18th June 14:25
quote:
If Moomin gets done for this it'll only serve to damage the image of the courts, CPS and police even further with me, and probably with others here too. The further our respect for the police and judiciary are eroded by pursuing and prosecuting ordinary people like this, the closer we'll come to being as bad as the scrotes in terms of inclination to act with impunity. Hence law enforcement becomes even more difficult.
Well said!
Pardon my rather simplistic approach Moom, but surely it's his/her word against yours ? How the bloody hell can Plod think they've got a cat in hell's chance in getting a result ? What a waste of money.
I'd get a good solicitor and get them to throw it out. There's simply no justice if this goes through and you end up getting slapped for it.
Sorry madcop, but your buddies have gone down in my estimation. Again.
I'd get a good solicitor and get them to throw it out. There's simply no justice if this goes through and you end up getting slapped for it.
Sorry madcop, but your buddies have gone down in my estimation. Again.
Madcop has basically said it all from a legal/police point of view. But from a waste of Police/court time it is most certainly moomin who is wasting the time. If you don't want to stop at the scene because the other driver is aggressive then fine, no one is saying you should take a battering because the other driver is a nutter but just report it, like the other driver did, it is then a simple matter of matching up the two sets of details passing them to the respective parties and letting the insurance companies sort it out. Instead some copper has now ended up with an RTA report and a stack of paperwork because a driver couldn't be bothered to comply with the law. From my point of view fail to stop at the scene of an RTA is a serious offence, OK the consequences of this particulat RTA are minor but the work generated is the same as if it were a more serious RTA. As for the police/cps getting it wrong, if you take all the other elements out of the equasion, ie bad driving you are still left with a staight forward fail to stop/report an RTA, Moomin is certainly aware of it, and his obligations.
>> Edited by john robson on Tuesday 18th June 16:38
>> Edited by john robson on Tuesday 18th June 16:38
I don't think we can blame madcop's buddies here - this third party may have come up with some fanciful tale of the incident (possibly finding/making up other damage to add to things).
On the other hand, I have been in a similar situation to the 3rd party - I was on the pavement next to my car, when a passing vehicle whacked my mirror & doorframe with his mirror & proceeded to speed off. My mate & I jumped in & chased after him - eventually after much evasion & overtaking, we managed to catch him & force him to stop.
We were very polite (he had his 5 year old son in the back) & asked for an explanation - he started: "well I guess that's probably the best car you can afford, but I didn't do any damage" (Had an old TR7 at the time & yes it was the best I could then afford)
We put it to him that he didn't know that as he didn't stop (turned out there was some damage - needed new mirror, plus minor respray)
I then asked for his insurance details, which he refused to give. At this point we told his kid to tell Mummy "Daddy has been in an accident & will be put in jail"
We then drove to a police station & told our tale. Never did get any money out of it, but I believe that he got successfully prosecuted. Not quite the same as moomin's tale, but you could see how the police might believe it to be.
cheers,
Craig
On the other hand, I have been in a similar situation to the 3rd party - I was on the pavement next to my car, when a passing vehicle whacked my mirror & doorframe with his mirror & proceeded to speed off. My mate & I jumped in & chased after him - eventually after much evasion & overtaking, we managed to catch him & force him to stop.
We were very polite (he had his 5 year old son in the back) & asked for an explanation - he started: "well I guess that's probably the best car you can afford, but I didn't do any damage" (Had an old TR7 at the time & yes it was the best I could then afford)
We put it to him that he didn't know that as he didn't stop (turned out there was some damage - needed new mirror, plus minor respray)
I then asked for his insurance details, which he refused to give. At this point we told his kid to tell Mummy "Daddy has been in an accident & will be put in jail"
We then drove to a police station & told our tale. Never did get any money out of it, but I believe that he got successfully prosecuted. Not quite the same as moomin's tale, but you could see how the police might believe it to be.
cheers,
Craig
quote:
Sorry madcop, but your buddies have gone down in my estimation. Again.
Can't agree with you here Greg. All the Police are doing is applying the law, we all know you are legally obliged to stop following an accident, no matter how minor.
I had a car take my door mirror off years ago down a country lane - I'd stopped, he went by at about 30mph and didn't stop. I couldn't get his number and it cost over £100 for a new mirror (company car so they paid
). I didn't report the incident but would have if it was my car. Think how you'd feel if someone clipped the side of your car and didn't stop - you'd be pissed I'm sure. In the eyes of the law, no difference.
Similar story to that. An ex-work colleague of mine was driven into. Driver didn't stop and sped across town to get away. In the end she got stuck in traffic and could be confronted. My mate was very angry 
and let rip but didn't touch her or her car. HE then ended up getting a caution from the police for using threatening behaviour ffs.
Fortunately she got done for failing to stop at RTA and my mate got his money.
With regard to this incident IMO the police have done all they could do. If they had ignored the other driver they would be accused of ignoring crime.
and let rip but didn't touch her or her car. HE then ended up getting a caution from the police for using threatening behaviour ffs. Fortunately she got done for failing to stop at RTA and my mate got his money. With regard to this incident IMO the police have done all they could do. If they had ignored the other driver they would be accused of ignoring crime.
the tossing police want intrested when a dam panda car riped my wing mirror off at around about and faild to stop.
they did not think it was very serouse when it was one of theres.
and no he want on a 999 they just made out they dnt know who was driving the panda.
yea shaw they dident know.
they did not think it was very serouse when it was one of theres.
and no he want on a 999 they just made out they dnt know who was driving the panda.
yea shaw they dident know.
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