Stopped at 106

[Annoyed]

I was recently stopped on the new four lane stretch of the A1 near Peterborough, apparently caught on laser at 106 mph. I'm annoyed for not spotting the swine, and I honestly have no idea if I was going that fast. Some other traffic was going faster than me, and I'd made an effort to keep it down so I didn't need to stop for fuel. When pulled over I was told they picked me because I had a loud, obvious car - thanks.

I've currently got a clean licence and was driving carefully and safely. The road was lightly trafficed but there was a bit of imtermittent drizzle. The "I was bullied at school and ruin people's lives to get my own back" said I'd be off to court.

I don't *need* my licence for work, but I'm going to be totally stuffed without it for more than a couple of weeks, and six points will mean no insurance. Any guesses as to the punishment for my "offence"?

[funkihamsta]

You were doing more than 30 over limit. The cop didn't do you any favours if he is taking that 106mph figure forward to court (often they'll say that was 99 wasn't it and you'll go yes it was sir, thankyou very much sir). Get an excellent barrister to throw doubt on the measurements, legality of procedure ...anything!! or your looking at automatic ban not just 6 points.

funkihamsta

[bobthebench]

Need to agree. Over 100 usually earns a ban of some sort. Appear in person with a plausible story and 6 points is possible, but expect 28 days. If the road is a blackspot, a longer ban is likely. It can be difficult to challenge the speed down, but contact CPS when the time comes and consider plea bargaining, i.e. I'll cop for 99 and plead guilty, 106 and we all go to trial. CPS are so stretched and measure only convictions, they'll bite your hand off. They may even lower it some more.

[trefor]

106 doesn't always mean a ban. My kid bro got done one M3 at 106 (I think) and just got 6 points. This isn't necessarily better than a 2 week ban, both probably have the same effect on your insurance, but with the points he's now driving much more cautiously in case he gets another few points, and head towards 6 months off the road due to totting up to 12 points.

Look at the speeding stories on this site and many people either get 6 points and no band or, say, 14 days ban and a fine (with no points).

Also, many insurance companies don't load you too much for one speeding offence. Unless you've got previous form we don't know about

T/.

[rossc]

Some time ago, I was clocked at 121mph on the M11, the kind gentleman in the jam sandwich kindly scribled 102 on the ticket. Court appearance led to 6 points & about £200 so all is not lost....

[JMGS4]

Annoyed....
You mentioned it drizzling, now in France, Germany, Holland, and Switzerland ANY reading taken during drizzle/rain is AUTOMATICALLY thrown out as NO (traffic) radars are accurate in the rain.. only very high powered flight, AA and anti-ship radars can work in rain....... trafficradar is a weak candle compared to them.........
I DON'T know if this can be applied to the now nazi BLiar-state but it's worth a try.....
BUT they could do you for dangerous (drizzle-slippy etc) or driving wo due care instead....

Of course i don't mean nazi, I meant nasti, sorry natsi damned dilexic fingers

>> Edited by JMGS4 on Thursday 13th June 10:42

[mondeoman]

quote:
but with the points he's now driving much more cautiously in case he gets another few points, and head towards 6 months off the road due to totting up to 12 points.

WOT!!!!!!! 6 month ban for 12 points ----- oooohhhhhhhh Shhhtttttttttt!!!! Is that for real?? Seriously worried now with 9 points, 6 months to go to clear 6 of them (all exceeding posted limit ), and two outstanding Gatso flashes (admittedly face forward, other side of the road, but.....)

>> Edited by mondeoman on Thursday 13th June 11:06

[mattc]

quote:
Annoyed....
You mentioned it drizzling, now in France, Germany, Holland, and Switzerland ANY reading taken during drizzle/rain is AUTOMATICALLY thrown out as NO (traffic) radars are accurate in the rain.. only very high powered flight, AA and anti-ship radars can work in rain....... trafficradar is a weak candle compared to them.........

In my view this is a deeply unfortunate state of affairs. Most of us agree that modern cars are pretty safe on well maintained, empty roads in good conditions at 100mph. Wait a sec... I said "GOOD CONDITIONS". If it's wet, you really have very little justification for these kinds of speeds (though not B/W, I agree).
But if the coppers can only "apply safety enhancement measures" in perfect dry conditions.... Well, the whole setup is nonsense, isn't it?

[JMGS4]

quote:
But if the coppers can only "apply safety enhancement measures" in perfect dry conditions.... Well, the whole setup is nonsense, isn't it?

That's not the point! They must have absolutely verifiable proof and rain deflects radar so much (up to 100%) that absolute proof cannot be given, thus it gets thrown out of the legal system........ remember not guilty until PROVEN and the proof is missing or unreliable.... thus NOT GUILTY!!!!
N.B. If you're ever stopped in France and get nicked, ask for the meteorological conditions to be noted EXACTLY on the sheet, as well as the operator and the stopping coppers name number etc It's the law (and useful if you're going to fight it). As a policeman MUST supply the EXACT met. details AT THE TIME OF RADAR (which he is not equipped to do) usually this gets dropped..... I've had 3 dropped for exactly this reason (humidity over 97%) between 1987 and 91!!!

[Deadly Dog]

quote:
Annoyed....
You mentioned it drizzling, now in France, Germany, Holland, and Switzerland ANY reading taken during drizzle/rain is AUTOMATICALLY thrown out as NO (traffic) radars are accurate in the rain

It would appear he was caught by laser but this is also affected by rain, fog and drizzle which reduces the device's detection range (but not its accuracy). Could be a point worth raising in defence - speak to your solicitor first.

Interesting point about radar though. I wonder if they reject Gatso evidence on the Continent if the defendant is photographed during a downpour.

[trefor]

quote:

quote:
but with the points he's now driving much more cautiously in case he gets another few points, and head towards 6 months off the road due to totting up to 12 points.

WOT!!!!!!! 6 month ban for 12 points ----- oooohhhhhhhh Shhhtttttttttt!!!! Is that for real?? Seriously worried now with 9 points, 6 months to go to clear 6 of them (all exceeding posted limit ), and two outstanding Gatso flashes (admittedly face forward, other side of the road, but.....)

>> Edited by mondeoman on Thursday 13th June 11:06

That's what I thought happened - I'll wait for one of our resident experts to correct me or confirm this though. Question is, what would you expect to happen if you get banned through totting up?

[JMGS4]

quote:
It would appear he was caught by laser but this is also affected by rain, fog and drizzle which reduces the device's detection range (but not its accuracy).

Lasers also get their accuracy affected by any interference (light gets slowed due to interference therefore accuracy affected, i.e. beam diffusion if you know about lasers) I do know I work with all sorts of lasers daily!!!

---

Interesting point about radar though. I wonder if they reject Gatso evidence on the Continent if the defendant is photographed during a downpour.

---

Yes they do! You will never find a Gatso piccy in the post taken during a rainshower in F or D or CH, as you will also NOT see the franch or german coppers using a mobile-unit in those conditions (and that's not only because they're lazy)

>> Edited by JMGS4 on Thursday 13th June 11:34

[trefor]

quote:
You will never find a Gatso piccy in the post taken during a rainshower in F or D or CH, as you will also NOT see the franch or german coppers using a mobile-unit in those conditions (and that's not only because they're lazy)

That reminds me of something I've been meaning to ask. Has anyone in the UK ever seen/been stopped by a mobile camera unti operating in rain/mist/fog/bad weather or in the dark away from streetlights?

I've always thought "I don't need to look out for speed traps so carefully since it's -10 degrees or pi55ing down with rain etc." I don't speed excessively in bad weather conditions before someone gets on my case, but I'm always on the look out for the police in case I make a silly mistake and end up paying for it (we all do from time to time).

[JMGS4]

quote:
mobile camera unti operating in rain/mist/fog/bad weather or in the dark away from streetlights?

Look out in Germany, there are enough that operate in the dark, away from traffic and street lights, especially on the limited stretches of M-way and fast a-roads here. Red flashes......... mostly from the front and mounted on top of the Armco or just behind peeping over....

>> Edited by JMGS4 on Thursday 13th June 13:38

[Deadly Dog]

quote:
Lasers also get their accuracy affected by any interference (light gets slowed due to interference therefore accuracy affected, i.e. beam diffusion if you know about lasers) I do know I work with all sorts of lasers daily!!!

It is interesting to note the ACPO guidelines (section 33.3) which state "Heavy rain, spray or mist may reduce the range of the laser but will not effect the speed measurement." Perhaps they need revising.

[Annoyed]

Thanks for the responses. I've got a clean license at the moment (I'm always very careful, and am ANNOYED for not spotting the life-wreckers this time). Do insurance companies view a ban in the same light as points (could handle a two week ban if it was better in the long run)? Six points will almost certainly mean I can't insure the car I was driving.

Also, would anyone with experience of this situation recommend instructing a solicitor, or should I just turn up, look sheepish and grovel?

[JMGS4]

quote:
It is interesting to note the ACPO guidelines (section 33.3) which state "Heavy rain, spray or mist may reduce the range of the laser but will not effect the speed measurement." Perhaps they need revising.

Deadly, notes written by bureaucrats NOT by engineers!! Those buggers couldn't even calculate the speed of light..........

To clarify, any interference in the beam will diffuse i.e split-off parts of the beam making it weaker, thus the shorter distance claim
BUT the beam will also be appreciably slowed (if enough particles there) and thus alter the beams wavelength and is thus no longer receivable at the correct (measuring) frequency by the receiver of the unit. This receiver frequency is extremely tightly tolerated as this is what gives the unit its accuracy (timing between sending and receiving.... slower is longer thus innacuracies can be vast). A higher powered laser would be dangerous for the operator/target (emissions) thus the weak (and thus variable under certain situations) signals.......

>> Edited by JMGS4 on Thursday 13th June 14:12

[Deadly Dog]

quote:
Deadly, notes written by bureaucrats NOT by engineers!! Those buggers couldn't even calculate the speed of light..........

To clarify, any interference in the beam will diffuse i.e split-off parts of the beam making it weaker, thus the shorter distance claim
BUT the beam will also be appreciably slowed (if enough particles there) and thus alter the beams wavelength and is thus no longer receivable at the correct (measuring) frequency by the receiver of the unit. This receiver frequency is extremely tightly tolerated as this is what gives the unit its accuracy (timing between sending and receiving.... slower is longer thus innacuracies can be vast). A higher powered laser would be dangerous for the operator/target (emissions) thus the weak (and thus variable under certain situations) signals.......

A couple of ideas spring to mind.

1) Using your experience and knowledge of laser operation (and its shortcomings), write a brief scientific paper on above argument. This could be used as a point of reference for a defendant if a laser reading is being disputed - especially under the weather conditions discussed here. Somewhere like Pepipoo (www.pepipoo.com) may find it interesting and make use of it.

2) Get this tested this in the real world. Steve Warren at UK Speedtraps (www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk) has a variety of Type Approved laser devices in his possession. Perhaps an experiment could be set up with the help of Mr Warren to evaluate the accuracy of this equipment under varying weather conditions. Who knows, some eye-opening results could be generated.

[JMGS4]

quote:
A couple of ideas spring to mind.
1) Using your experience and knowledge of laser operation (and its shortcomings), write a brief scientific paper on above argument. This could be used as a point of reference for a defendant if a laser reading is being disputed - especially under the weather conditions discussed here. Somewhere like Pepipoo (www.pepipoo.com) may find it interesting and make use of it.

2) Get this tested this in the real world. Steve Warren at UK Speedtraps (www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk) has a variety of Type Approved laser devices in his possession. Perhaps an experiment could be set up with the help of Mr Warren to evaluate the accuracy of this equipment under varying weather conditions. Who knows, some eye-opening results could be generated.

Deadly, good idea
To 1) these papers exist already I'll try and find and post them
2) tests have been done by the German TüV in various germans states and already proven that fixed and especially mobile radars are extremely innacurate in high humidity conditions. Again I'll try and find/post them............

[JMGS4]

Deadly and others, here is a list of university and other papers all which have references to the innacuracies of Laser and radar, especially when affected by vehicle particle emissions (Smog) and humidity (see the met site for this). Any good lawyer can tear holes in any bureaucrats arguments about radar accuracy with these.... More follow if required

www.geographie.uni-halle.de/pgeo/geofern/ak/ak-tag-99.htm


www-info1.informatik.uni-wuerzburg.de/projects/DFG/main.html


http://userpage.fu-berlin.de/~janb/radartech.html

www.video-patrol.de/systeme.htm

www.uni-ulm.de/uni/veroeff/fb/93-95/124.htm

www.totalitaer.de/Radar/radarmeasurements.htm

www.icg.tu-graz.ac.at/~Education/Vorlesung/MAB/Slides/robvis-5.PDF


www.uni-hamburg.de/Forber/aforber/e15/e15040/b15040.htm

greetings, sorry if they're all in german but thats where a lot of the laser/radar research is done nowadays....