Discussion
I was fallowing a friend on Saturday night neark where I like, both of us in our Chimps, now it was 0015 Sunday morning to be correct. we both had to turn left on a round about onto the main drag thro town to get out on to the main roads.
as my friend went round the round about be stepped the rear of his car out a minor amount, nothing to be said about that other than he moved about 1 inch out of track. I followed without event, about two mins later when we pulled off the old blues flashed I pulled in and the bizzys went past to collor my friend.
then the police car backed up to collor me.
I was asked the normal question: do you know why we stopped you sir? I replyed no not at all, he said that we had both lost controll of our cars on the round abouts and that's why we had been pulled in, and that we where speeding. well that got my back up because every thing was not exactly correct on his part.
I was then asked into the police car and showed a meter showing 45mph and a distance reading of 0.5miles. I said well that does not prove anything as they a manually operated and error is easily brought into the maths. he denied this and said that the are correct and are callibrated on a section of the A30 each day, well I had to correct him again, as this is not a callibration but an operational test. This got his back up so I pushed it further and asked for eedense that the reading had just been taken, ie in the last 5 mins, he could not do this so I told him it was invalid, he then retorted that his partner that was with my friend could back him up. So I was then told to follow him to where my friend was.
I then got the old speach about braking distances which is a load of crap because when those measurements where calculated I was still in my farthers sack. So I corrected him and reminded him that in these road conditions most cars could stop from 40 mph in the difference stated btween 30 and 40 in this day and age. Well this got his back up, I then was begining to enjoy winding this orificer up. He then came up with the children dying moralisting crap that they do about survial rates at different speeds, I cannot fault these stats but I reminded him that it was almost 1 am and no children should be up at this time. he then sugested that I should accept an SP30, I refused because that in iteslf was an admission of guilt and ba accepting it I would then be increaseing the stats for the local poloce by giving a conviction for and offence without any paperwork or police work in his part, also that this detracted from real crimes like murder etc and the recent theft of my BMW which they had been informed about and failed to do anything about. well at this point details where passed under duress and I was cautioned for recless driving and the police oficer lost his rag and threw his note book into the car in disgust with his inability to justify an argument that he had with me.
My friend was sent home with no action against him. What I have to ask is this: is it correct to peanalise one person and not the other just because one wishes to get a justification for the polices actions? At the end of the day I do not beleive that we had been speeding and it was just a ruse to sap the puplic as normal, well most of us just take it and accept an SP30 rightly or rongly just to get rid of them don't we?
well I just couldn't bring myself to do it.
as my friend went round the round about be stepped the rear of his car out a minor amount, nothing to be said about that other than he moved about 1 inch out of track. I followed without event, about two mins later when we pulled off the old blues flashed I pulled in and the bizzys went past to collor my friend.
then the police car backed up to collor me.
I was asked the normal question: do you know why we stopped you sir? I replyed no not at all, he said that we had both lost controll of our cars on the round abouts and that's why we had been pulled in, and that we where speeding. well that got my back up because every thing was not exactly correct on his part.
I was then asked into the police car and showed a meter showing 45mph and a distance reading of 0.5miles. I said well that does not prove anything as they a manually operated and error is easily brought into the maths. he denied this and said that the are correct and are callibrated on a section of the A30 each day, well I had to correct him again, as this is not a callibration but an operational test. This got his back up so I pushed it further and asked for eedense that the reading had just been taken, ie in the last 5 mins, he could not do this so I told him it was invalid, he then retorted that his partner that was with my friend could back him up. So I was then told to follow him to where my friend was.
I then got the old speach about braking distances which is a load of crap because when those measurements where calculated I was still in my farthers sack. So I corrected him and reminded him that in these road conditions most cars could stop from 40 mph in the difference stated btween 30 and 40 in this day and age. Well this got his back up, I then was begining to enjoy winding this orificer up. He then came up with the children dying moralisting crap that they do about survial rates at different speeds, I cannot fault these stats but I reminded him that it was almost 1 am and no children should be up at this time. he then sugested that I should accept an SP30, I refused because that in iteslf was an admission of guilt and ba accepting it I would then be increaseing the stats for the local poloce by giving a conviction for and offence without any paperwork or police work in his part, also that this detracted from real crimes like murder etc and the recent theft of my BMW which they had been informed about and failed to do anything about. well at this point details where passed under duress and I was cautioned for recless driving and the police oficer lost his rag and threw his note book into the car in disgust with his inability to justify an argument that he had with me.
My friend was sent home with no action against him. What I have to ask is this: is it correct to peanalise one person and not the other just because one wishes to get a justification for the polices actions? At the end of the day I do not beleive that we had been speeding and it was just a ruse to sap the puplic as normal, well most of us just take it and accept an SP30 rightly or rongly just to get rid of them don't we?
well I just couldn't bring myself to do it.
well, I think that I can but I think that I harresed them as much as they did me. Well it makes the evening pass quicker for them doesn't it? 
My point is that they should chrge us both or not at all! the CPS has to be seen to be fair doesn't it? so they should not be able to do anything, on another point no producers where issued or anything signed, what do you think will be the responce?
My point is that they should chrge us both or not at all! the CPS has to be seen to be fair doesn't it? so they should not be able to do anything, on another point no producers where issued or anything signed, what do you think will be the responce?
Paulu,
First point, you cannot harrass a policeman, but they can harrass you. You are well within your rights to disagree with him, but he is not allowed to attempt to intimidate you.
If you took down his details, which you should always do if you get some cheek from a policeman, then I would make an official complaint about his behaviour to his superiors, going into very specific detail about his actions. If you have not signed anything and no details were taken then I can't see how you could have received an official caution.
This is all unqualified personal advice of course but, and no offense to the coppers who are regulars here, you should never accept attitude from the police, their job is to remain professional, and failing to do this they undermine the credibility of the whole force. If you are clearly in it up to your elbows, then it could be counter-productive, of course, but if I were you I would be making an official complaint right away.
John
>> Edited by kingjohn on Monday 13th May 21:02
First point, you cannot harrass a policeman, but they can harrass you. You are well within your rights to disagree with him, but he is not allowed to attempt to intimidate you.
If you took down his details, which you should always do if you get some cheek from a policeman, then I would make an official complaint about his behaviour to his superiors, going into very specific detail about his actions. If you have not signed anything and no details were taken then I can't see how you could have received an official caution.
This is all unqualified personal advice of course but, and no offense to the coppers who are regulars here, you should never accept attitude from the police, their job is to remain professional, and failing to do this they undermine the credibility of the whole force. If you are clearly in it up to your elbows, then it could be counter-productive, of course, but if I were you I would be making an official complaint right away.
John
>> Edited by kingjohn on Monday 13th May 21:02
Totally ill-informed advice from me, but to be honest we should all (without exception) question the police. If they are correct then they will justify their actions and we can all take it on the chin.
However (and it is a BIG however) those that cannot be justified should be questioned. Without the evidence, proof call it what you will - we need to ensure that the incredibly inconsistent policing that we get in this country is stamped out.
Some police might take it as cheek, others as an informed member of the public. If they treat you badly - we have a course of action to take on them. These are our rights and we should stand by them.... never take anything for the sake of it....
Personally I think that you did a good thing. Stand up for what you believe in and dont let them pin something on you. If nothing was done on the spot then it would be unlikely anything will come through the post.
Cheers,
Paul
However (and it is a BIG however) those that cannot be justified should be questioned. Without the evidence, proof call it what you will - we need to ensure that the incredibly inconsistent policing that we get in this country is stamped out.
Some police might take it as cheek, others as an informed member of the public. If they treat you badly - we have a course of action to take on them. These are our rights and we should stand by them.... never take anything for the sake of it....
Personally I think that you did a good thing. Stand up for what you believe in and dont let them pin something on you. If nothing was done on the spot then it would be unlikely anything will come through the post.
Cheers,
Paul
Great attitude paulu, Personaly I would have just slapped you with the FPN for the excess speed, and not bothered with trying to explain to you why we are actually out there doing our job. You obviously are an excellent first class driver who is never going to have an accident, your powers of observations are spot on, (why didn't you manage to spot the police car before it pulled you). I wonder how you would feel if one of your relatives/friends was wiped out by some lunatic driving beyond his ability ?? (sorry forgot you don't believe in moralistic crap). Maybe it's a bit before your time but there was a film out when I was younger called Death Race 2000, I saw that it had been re-released recently watch it I'm sure you would enjoy it. I just hope that your driving is better than your spelling and grammar. Plead 'not guilty' if you get a summons I'm sure you would provide a very entertaining day out in court. (and loose)
When I am doing my job I am quite happy to explain how the equipment works, why I am doing it etc. The police are here to do a job, we are not 'doormats' to be walked over if you do not like the particular law we are enforcing. A great deal of the time we spend patroling the roads is done to provide a visible deterant to poor driving etc, when we do see something that 'atracts' our attention we often use it as an opportunity to speak to and advise the driver, if someone then chooses to start ranting on about burglars and murderers rather than listen to the advice then don't be surprised if the officer decides that the only way that you will change your attitude is by putting the matter before the magistrates. If you would like an officer to treat you with respect then treat him with respect. I for one have never 'stiched' someone up with a speeding ticket or any other offence, from what you have already posted the VASCAR check he showed you seems perfectly reasonable
>> Edited by john robson on Monday 13th May 20:54
When I am doing my job I am quite happy to explain how the equipment works, why I am doing it etc. The police are here to do a job, we are not 'doormats' to be walked over if you do not like the particular law we are enforcing. A great deal of the time we spend patroling the roads is done to provide a visible deterant to poor driving etc, when we do see something that 'atracts' our attention we often use it as an opportunity to speak to and advise the driver, if someone then chooses to start ranting on about burglars and murderers rather than listen to the advice then don't be surprised if the officer decides that the only way that you will change your attitude is by putting the matter before the magistrates. If you would like an officer to treat you with respect then treat him with respect. I for one have never 'stiched' someone up with a speeding ticket or any other offence, from what you have already posted the VASCAR check he showed you seems perfectly reasonable
>> Edited by john robson on Monday 13th May 20:54
I think Death Race 2000 is on TV later this week!
Top film, OAP's being pushed into the road by the nurse's in order to get mowed down for more points
Oh and another thing O/T why didn't the police in Dukes of Hazard just go and wait for Bo & Duke at there home instead of trashing umteen cop cars chaseing them?
Top film, OAP's being pushed into the road by the nurse's in order to get mowed down for more points
Oh and another thing O/T why didn't the police in Dukes of Hazard just go and wait for Bo & Duke at there home instead of trashing umteen cop cars chaseing them?
quote:
Great attitude paulu, Personaly I would have just slapped you with the FPN for the excess speed, and not bothered with trying to explain to you why we are actually out there doing our job. You obviously are an excellent first class driver who is never going to have an accident, your powers of observations are spot on, (why didn't you manage to spot the police car before it pulled you). I wonder how you would feel if one of your relatives/friends was wiped out by some lunatic driving beyond his ability ?? (sorry forgot you don't believe in moralistic crap). Maybe it's a bit before your time but there was a film out when I was younger called Death Race 2000, I saw that it had been re-released recently watch it I'm sure you would enjoy it. I just hope that your driving is better than your spelling and grammar. Plead 'not guilty' if you get a summons I'm sure you would provide a very entertaining day out in court. (and loose)
When I am doing my job I am quite happy to explain how the equipment works, why I am doing it etc. The police are here to do a job, we are not 'doormats' to be walked over if you do not like the particular law we are enforcing. A great deal of the time we spend patroling the roads is done to provide a visible deterant to poor driving etc, when we do see something that 'atracts' our attention we often use it as an opportunity to speak to and advise the driver, if someone then chooses to start ranting on about burglars and murderers rather than listen to the advice then don't be surprised if the officer decides that the only way that you will change your attitude is by putting the matter before the magistrates. If you would like an officer to treat you with respect then treat him with respect. I for one have never 'stiched' someone up with a speeding ticket or any other offence, from what you have already posted the VASCAR check he showed you seems perfectly reasonable
>> Edited by john robson on Monday 13th May 20:54
Personaly i would rip it up in front of them and tell themwere to put there FPN, where the sun dont shine.
i they want to do me for some silly speeding crap I aint making it easy for them to make the cash.
they can go to the expennce of a court trial and
the bed a becfast cost when i tel the magistraits to put the fine where the sun dont shine.
if that can prov it.
and if every one did the same it would be the end of the speed tax scam.
and as for youe excus of some one geting wiped out
that was the guys original point,if they wernt pissing around with him.
they could be looking for some real danger on the road and do some ting usefull other than colecting tax.
you may not be doormate but a hell of a lot of pig treat the public as doormats
and it about time those one got some back.
and you may not have sitched anyone up but i know many that have and are as bent a a 3pound note.
i all so know some good ones too, as well as some total arss wips on a power trip
>> Edited by outlaw on Monday 13th May 21:39
John Robson
The Police are NOT always right, are NOT all upstanding public servants, are NOT above the law, do NOT determine the law, and as this and many other posts provide example of cannot admit they are wrong once they have committed themselves to approaching/stopping someone for an alleged offence.
The Police forces generally do a good job imho but cannot seem to help themselves when it comes to shooting themselves in the foot.
The Police are NOT always right, are NOT all upstanding public servants, are NOT above the law, do NOT determine the law, and as this and many other posts provide example of cannot admit they are wrong once they have committed themselves to approaching/stopping someone for an alleged offence.
The Police forces generally do a good job imho but cannot seem to help themselves when it comes to shooting themselves in the foot.
I have to agree with John Robson, not because I too deal with this sort of attitude day in day out, but because so many people think that with a few bucks in their pocket and the power to buy their way into a perceived position in society that they should be above one, the law and two, advice from someone who may save them a lot of heartache. Especially if its someone who is experienced and trained in a particular skill. I am not just talking about driving. How many of you out there who are experts in your own field would entertain barrack room attitudes to your particular field without becoming wound up? Even more so if someone else`s safety comes into question. How many peoples` doors has paulu knocked on to give the news of a loved ones death or injury? I would hazard a guess at none. That`s why many experienced cops get narked at this sort of know-it-all amateur attitude `Its never going to happen to me. I`m too good` Believe me it does happen to even the most experienced of us and when you are least expecting it. I for one would have remained professional and not even entertained a discussion on this once I realised where it was going. paulu you would have been reported and told to plead not guilty to the facts as I saw them and we would then argue about it in front of the Magistrates. I wouldn`t even waste my time with you. Too many murderers and rapists to catch. A five minute argument with you would prevent me from spending them in a much more worthwhile way!!! I`ve checked the spelling, too. I can`t stand anymore criticism!!
Sorry folks have to side with madcop on this one. I would assume it is probably the most annoying thing in the world as a policeman to enter into a discussion with someone that offers a retort to every line. The cop in question must have 'lost it' to have entered into such dialogue with you, hence the lack of a producer etc (but then again don't count your chickens), he just wants to forget it as well.
The reason your 'mate' 'got away with it' was probably down to a more cool and mature attitude to the policeman’s questions.
Put it down to experience, be polite, they do have a job to do and I for one would like them to pull all Tivs being driven erratically at 1am in the morning because there's a fair bet it's not the owner driving it
Harry
PS nothing personal just IMHO
The reason your 'mate' 'got away with it' was probably down to a more cool and mature attitude to the policeman’s questions.
Put it down to experience, be polite, they do have a job to do and I for one would like them to pull all Tivs being driven erratically at 1am in the morning because there's a fair bet it's not the owner driving it
Harry
PS nothing personal just IMHO
Hmmmm, looks to me like you all have valid points to make; However......
On the one hand, winding the fuzz up is asking for trouble - Get Real....
And on the other hand - the Police are not saints, they rarely admit mistakes and sometimes their professionalism leaves a lot to be desired.
About the only thing I've read here that makes complete sense, is that under the circumstances this was not going to get sorted out by the side of the road.
On the one hand, winding the fuzz up is asking for trouble - Get Real....
And on the other hand - the Police are not saints, they rarely admit mistakes and sometimes their professionalism leaves a lot to be desired.
About the only thing I've read here that makes complete sense, is that under the circumstances this was not going to get sorted out by the side of the road.
I was recently pulled over by the police, and it rather got my back up. First of all, I admit I was committing an offence - my car had non-standard plates on. What got my back up was that it was 1.30 a.m., and I was on my way home through a sleepy little town, having driven from the Isle of Man. That's why I had the silly plates on, because you can in IoM, and I simply forgot to change them. I obeyed all speed limits on my 7 hour journey (4 hours on the ferry) and was generally a good citizen. The Mondeo in front of me, when I was stopped, sped off at about 50 mph, in a 30 zone, whilst I pootled along at 30, giving the officers a chance to catch up and stop me. It was clear from the start that they just wanted to have a look at the Tamora, and spent a good few minutes "checking the lights" etc. I offered to change the plates there and then, since I had the legal ones in the boot, but no, that wasn't good enough. So I spent 20 minutes, in freezing mist, at the dead of night, essentially to satisfy the curiosity of a policeman. I was courteous and polite throughout, and given that I neither look, nor sound, nor drive, like an oik, it seems unlikey that I was responsible for the sports car stealing crime wave which was the policeman's opening gambit. I think, after I'd shown him the legal plates, it wouldn't have been too much to simply say, "Very well, it's late, you've come a long way, get those plates changed in the morning". It's all a question of attitude, and I'm sure it's possible to say "well, you were committing an offence, and how do the police know the circumstances without asking", but it was just so petty, niggly and unnecessary. I felt like I had provided 20 minutes of entertainment for a couple of policemen who were a bit bored on the night shift.
It's the same attitude for which my 70 year old mother was pulled over, yesterday, and given a 10 minute lecture, simply because she stayed in the outside lane of a dual carriageway, so she could turn right at the next filter lane, which was about 1/2 mile away, but crucially beyond the traffic lights where the gallant officers spotted her in the outside lane (she'd overtaken a bus, and then had to stop at the lights.) JR, I've read loads of your posts, and I know from them that you are an entirely human police officer, and I thoroughly respect your knowledge and attitude, but there seems to be a little element of the power-crazy traffic officer in some of these, admittedly minor, incidents, that ruffles the feathers of reasonable people. Respect is due from both sides, surely?
It's the same attitude for which my 70 year old mother was pulled over, yesterday, and given a 10 minute lecture, simply because she stayed in the outside lane of a dual carriageway, so she could turn right at the next filter lane, which was about 1/2 mile away, but crucially beyond the traffic lights where the gallant officers spotted her in the outside lane (she'd overtaken a bus, and then had to stop at the lights.) JR, I've read loads of your posts, and I know from them that you are an entirely human police officer, and I thoroughly respect your knowledge and attitude, but there seems to be a little element of the power-crazy traffic officer in some of these, admittedly minor, incidents, that ruffles the feathers of reasonable people. Respect is due from both sides, surely?
Thanks for your comments, my thoughts on things are still unchanged but I do think that I should have kept my mouth shut and let the chap ramble bollox at me for ten mins and then go... but at the end of the day people do make mistakes and do crash, that's life I don't get bothered much by death because it comes to us all when it's our time, it does not matter what we are doing, we are going at that time.
death prevention is a waste of time once you see things from that point of view, but I have nothing against taking care not to cause harm to others.
I could not accept the fine as I was well within the law at the time, so many people fall for it time and time again. I will stand up for myself if it does end up in a court, at the end of the day I will be found guilty as that's what happens isn't it the police never loose on these cases.
death prevention is a waste of time once you see things from that point of view, but I have nothing against taking care not to cause harm to others.
I could not accept the fine as I was well within the law at the time, so many people fall for it time and time again. I will stand up for myself if it does end up in a court, at the end of the day I will be found guilty as that's what happens isn't it the police never loose on these cases.
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