Totting Up Ban
Discussion
gazza285 said:
Dunbar871 said:
I do notice the same posters across several threads who seem to have very different views to those you’d expect to see on an enthusiast’s motoring forum.
If being an enthusiastic driver means getting caught speeding for the fifth time and facing a ban then I’m out.It is difficult to be an enthusiastic driver if you are banned.
I don't understand this assumption that being a motoring enthusiast means being into going fast. I'm not the least bit interested in supercars, by and large they bore me.
JagLad said:
No apology is necessary but it's important to make sure that people who look for advice are told what is likely to happen and, just as importantly, what is not.
So I will just explain the process once more, so as to illustrate that what happened to your mate is unlikely to happen in this case. I'm not winding anybody up; I don't "get off" on this sort of thing. It just happens that I know how the process normally works.
!. He will be sentenced for the latest offence (35 in a 30). This will almost certainly be a fine of one third of a week's net income (i.e. half a week's income, reduced by a third for his guilty plea). He will also be ordered to pay costs (of around £90) and a "victim surcharge" of 10% of the fine. He will also have three points imposed on his driving record and so will face a "totting up" ban of six months.
2. Before that ban is imposed he will be asked if he wants to make an "exceptional hardship" (EH) argument.
3. If he does not, he will be disqualified for six months and ordered to pay the fine etc. He will leave the court disqualified from driving but with no points on his record.
4. If he does, the court will hear his argument.
5. If it is unsuccessful, step #3 will be invoked.
6. If it is successful, he will not be disqualified. He will be ordered to pay the fine and costs announced in step #1. He will leave the court able to drive, but with 12 points on his licence. He will be warned that any further offence which attracts points (committed before the earliest of the 12 points are three years old - based on the date of the offence) will see him face a totting up ban again. He will be further warned that he cannot use the same reasons for a second EH argument for three years.
The important point to note is that the sentence in Step #1 is not modified if the EH argument is successful. There is no prospect of additional points or a heavier fine. The sentence for the latest offence is decided before any EH argument is made, it stands alone and is independent of the result of the EH argument.
Interesting stuff.So I will just explain the process once more, so as to illustrate that what happened to your mate is unlikely to happen in this case. I'm not winding anybody up; I don't "get off" on this sort of thing. It just happens that I know how the process normally works.
!. He will be sentenced for the latest offence (35 in a 30). This will almost certainly be a fine of one third of a week's net income (i.e. half a week's income, reduced by a third for his guilty plea). He will also be ordered to pay costs (of around £90) and a "victim surcharge" of 10% of the fine. He will also have three points imposed on his driving record and so will face a "totting up" ban of six months.
2. Before that ban is imposed he will be asked if he wants to make an "exceptional hardship" (EH) argument.
3. If he does not, he will be disqualified for six months and ordered to pay the fine etc. He will leave the court disqualified from driving but with no points on his record.
4. If he does, the court will hear his argument.
5. If it is unsuccessful, step #3 will be invoked.
6. If it is successful, he will not be disqualified. He will be ordered to pay the fine and costs announced in step #1. He will leave the court able to drive, but with 12 points on his licence. He will be warned that any further offence which attracts points (committed before the earliest of the 12 points are three years old - based on the date of the offence) will see him face a totting up ban again. He will be further warned that he cannot use the same reasons for a second EH argument for three years.
The important point to note is that the sentence in Step #1 is not modified if the EH argument is successful. There is no prospect of additional points or a heavier fine. The sentence for the latest offence is decided before any EH argument is made, it stands alone and is independent of the result of the EH argument.
Can I pick your brain quickly?
One of my drivers is in a similar position. Totting up ban looming. Pled guilty and didn't want to go court. Via post with his guilty plea he explained some genuine extreme hardship extenuating circumstances.
He drives his cancer stricken mother to her chemotherapy and other hospital appointments and included hospital paperwork to back that up. He also basically helps cares for her. He's moved back home to be with her. Uses car to do her food shopping and laundrette trips etc. I'll have to lay him off if he loses his licence too.
The court have come back saying considering all that they want him to appear in court in October.
First question:- Why is that? Just to verify things?
He's a bit insular and won't come across well in court. He's anxious about it already, but he was happy to appear.
The second question, is that the court date in October clashes with a holiday. Not just any holiday but a holiday his elderly father is paying for, for the whole family to take a final holiday together before the inevitable happens to his wife (my drivers mum).
Would it be possible to ask the court to consider another date? Literally any other time in the year apart from those 2 weeks they are away in October?
Is that something they'd consider?
He's going to speak to someone at the court house imminently, so any advice you can impart beforehand will be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
CountyAFC said:
Interesting stuff.
Can I pick your brain quickly?
One of my drivers is in a similar position. Totting up ban looming. Pled guilty and didn't want to go court. Via post with his guilty plea he explained some genuine extreme hardship extenuating circumstances.
He drives his cancer stricken mother to her chemotherapy and other hospital appointments and included hospital paperwork to back that up. He also basically helps cares for her. He's moved back home to be with her. Uses car to do her food shopping and laundrette trips etc. I'll have to lay him off if he loses his licence too.
The court have come back saying considering all that they want him to appear in court in October.
First question:- Why is that? Just to verify things?
He's a bit insular and won't come across well in court. He's anxious about it already, but he was happy to appear.
The second question, is that the court date in October clashes with a holiday. Not just any holiday but a holiday his elderly father is paying for, for the whole family to take a final holiday together before the inevitable happens to his wife (my drivers mum).
Would it be possible to ask the court to consider another date? Literally any other time in the year apart from those 2 weeks they are away in October?
Is that something they'd consider?
He's going to speak to someone at the court house imminently, so any advice you can impart beforehand will be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
He is being asked to appear because they are considering disqualification which is normal. They generally do not like disqualifying in absence for, amongst other reasons, the defendant not inadvertantly driving after he has been banned which happens immediately. If he speaks to the court and explains his predicament re the holiday then they should try and accomodate with a new dateCan I pick your brain quickly?
One of my drivers is in a similar position. Totting up ban looming. Pled guilty and didn't want to go court. Via post with his guilty plea he explained some genuine extreme hardship extenuating circumstances.
He drives his cancer stricken mother to her chemotherapy and other hospital appointments and included hospital paperwork to back that up. He also basically helps cares for her. He's moved back home to be with her. Uses car to do her food shopping and laundrette trips etc. I'll have to lay him off if he loses his licence too.
The court have come back saying considering all that they want him to appear in court in October.
First question:- Why is that? Just to verify things?
He's a bit insular and won't come across well in court. He's anxious about it already, but he was happy to appear.
The second question, is that the court date in October clashes with a holiday. Not just any holiday but a holiday his elderly father is paying for, for the whole family to take a final holiday together before the inevitable happens to his wife (my drivers mum).
Would it be possible to ask the court to consider another date? Literally any other time in the year apart from those 2 weeks they are away in October?
Is that something they'd consider?
He's going to speak to someone at the court house imminently, so any advice you can impart beforehand will be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
I'm incredulous that people with such important responsibilities absolutely, positively can't stop themselves from speeding. I just don't get it.
If I was on 9 points I'd be driving around like a pensioner, sticking to every limit. It would completely suck but I would accept that it is what it is because of the duty of care I have towards others I care about to ensure that I don't get banned.
For people to get totted up when they have such a heavy burden of responsibility just doesn't make sense. Either they are embellishing about their dependents (how much they need them to be able to drive), or they don't care enough about them to stop themselves. It has to be one of these things.
This isn't a Brake/Mumsnet opinion, it's just simple fact. I break most speed limits when driving, so I'm not saying I'm an angel by any means. I honestly just don't get it.
If I was on 9 points I'd be driving around like a pensioner, sticking to every limit. It would completely suck but I would accept that it is what it is because of the duty of care I have towards others I care about to ensure that I don't get banned.
For people to get totted up when they have such a heavy burden of responsibility just doesn't make sense. Either they are embellishing about their dependents (how much they need them to be able to drive), or they don't care enough about them to stop themselves. It has to be one of these things.
This isn't a Brake/Mumsnet opinion, it's just simple fact. I break most speed limits when driving, so I'm not saying I'm an angel by any means. I honestly just don't get it.
CountyAFC said:
Interesting stuff.
Can I pick your brain quickly?
One of my drivers is in a similar position. Totting up ban looming. Pled guilty and didn't want to go court. Via post with his guilty plea he explained some genuine extreme hardship extenuating circumstances.
He drives his cancer stricken mother to her chemotherapy and other hospital appointments and included hospital paperwork to back that up. He also basically helps cares for her. He's moved back home to be with her. Uses car to do her food shopping and laundrette trips etc. I'll have to lay him off if he loses his licence too.
The court have come back saying considering all that they want him to appear in court in October.
First question:- Why is that? Just to verify things?
He's a bit insular and won't come across well in court. He's anxious about it already, but he was happy to appear.
The second question, is that the court date in October clashes with a holiday. Not just any holiday but a holiday his elderly father is paying for, for the whole family to take a final holiday together before the inevitable happens to his wife (my drivers mum).
Would it be possible to ask the court to consider another date? Literally any other time in the year apart from those 2 weeks they are away in October?
Is that something they'd consider?
He's going to speak to someone at the court house imminently, so any advice you can impart beforehand will be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
Too late now but the appropriate response to the SJPN was Guilty, I want to attend court. Avoid dates should have been sent to the court in advance of the SJ review. Can I pick your brain quickly?
One of my drivers is in a similar position. Totting up ban looming. Pled guilty and didn't want to go court. Via post with his guilty plea he explained some genuine extreme hardship extenuating circumstances.
He drives his cancer stricken mother to her chemotherapy and other hospital appointments and included hospital paperwork to back that up. He also basically helps cares for her. He's moved back home to be with her. Uses car to do her food shopping and laundrette trips etc. I'll have to lay him off if he loses his licence too.
The court have come back saying considering all that they want him to appear in court in October.
First question:- Why is that? Just to verify things?
He's a bit insular and won't come across well in court. He's anxious about it already, but he was happy to appear.
The second question, is that the court date in October clashes with a holiday. Not just any holiday but a holiday his elderly father is paying for, for the whole family to take a final holiday together before the inevitable happens to his wife (my drivers mum).
Would it be possible to ask the court to consider another date? Literally any other time in the year apart from those 2 weeks they are away in October?
Is that something they'd consider?
He's going to speak to someone at the court house imminently, so any advice you can impart beforehand will be much appreciated.
Thanks in advance.
If a defendant wishes to argue ‘exceptional hardship’ or other mitigating circumstances to avoid a ‘totting up’ disqualification then evidence must be given on oath. This can only be done if the defendant is present in court (or via CVP link.)
Waste of time speaking to court admin as they will say - put the request in writing. Send an email to the court. If necessary then make an application to vacate (there’s a form). Some courts are stricter than others about formalities.
martinbiz said:
He is being asked to appear because they are considering disqualification which is normal. They generally do not like disqualifying in absence for, amongst other reasons, the defendant not inadvertantly driving after he has been banned which happens immediately. If he speaks to the court and explains his predicament re the holiday then they should try and accomodate with a new date
It’s not an appointment. You can’t just call and change the date over the phone. If only it were that easy!agtlaw said:
martinbiz said:
He is being asked to appear because they are considering disqualification which is normal. They generally do not like disqualifying in absence for, amongst other reasons, the defendant not inadvertantly driving after he has been banned which happens immediately. If he speaks to the court and explains his predicament re the holiday then they should try and accomodate with a new date
It’s not an appointment. You can’t just call and change the date over the phone. If only it were that easy!martinbiz said:
Yes I understand that, perhaps badly worded that a call might be the best action to start the ball rolling
You’ll be lucky if they answer. On hold 30 mins then the call ends. If they do answer then they will say - put it in writing. I outlined the appropriate response above.CountyAFC said:
Thanks for responses so far. Who should he address the letter or email to at the court?
I want to help him as much as possible.
If he does get a ban, I'll need to let him go, but I'll find him something else for the interim and hopefully have him back once he's driving again.
It's 2024. Send an email. I want to help him as much as possible.
If he does get a ban, I'll need to let him go, but I'll find him something else for the interim and hopefully have him back once he's driving again.
Edited by agtlaw on Wednesday 3rd July 17:46
CountyAFC said:
I was asking because there isn't one.
There's this...
I'll have him call and ask for an email address.
That's the national helpline. A call centre. Totally useless. Use this:There's this...
I'll have him call and ask for an email address.
https://www.gov.uk/find-court-tribunal
Email the court. Do not email contactcrime@justice.gov.uk
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