Police run over calf - reasonable?

[dickymint]

Nibbles_bits said:

A firearms response is most definitely a contingency for livestock. My force has a humane dispatch kit, I don't know what's in it, but it won't be 5.56 ammo.
I would imagine the Surrey equivalent is stored at HQ rather than being in the ARV.

You told us that the other day - are you not curious enough to ask your force what it is? Similarly you also stated it was very difficult to find some policy document that you know exists about dangerous animal guidelines - have you found it yet or questioned why you can't find it?

[DonkeyApple]

Evanivitch said:

DonkeyApple said:

And yet you suggest the use of such tools in this environment. And you appear to think a police officer will have been trained where to hit the animal? And that it will be stationary? And that it was broad daylight? Or that they would be permitted to even make the attempt? Or be available? As per usual you head off down naive street.

Do you think the police shoot real human targets to practice shooting humans? How many kills before you're qualified?

You haven't a clue. It's quite funny you're trying

Back in your box.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-60838732

Nope. You're just naive and village in mentality as always. Lord knows why you're now going on about human targets and that cow wasn't in a town. But plinking some rounds in the CCF makes you a specialist.

[Bigends]

dickymint said:

Nibbles_bits said:

A firearms response is most definitely a contingency for livestock. My force has a humane dispatch kit, I don't know what's in it, but it won't be 5.56 ammo.
I would imagine the Surrey equivalent is stored at HQ rather than being in the ARV.

You told us that the other day - are you not curious enough to ask your force what it is? Similarly you also stated it was very difficult to find some policy document that you know exists about dangerous animal guidelines - have you found it yet or questioned why you can't find it?

Despatch kits are usually bolt guns as carried by the RSPCA and require proper training to use. Animals also have to have their brains and spinal cords scrambled after use

[DonkeyApple]

LM240 said:

DonkeyApple said:

Evanivitch said:

DonkeyApple said:

Evanivitch said:

DonkeyApple said:

Do you not suspect that different firearms and different ammunition are used for different tasks?

I'd imagine that that shooting a cow cleanly and professionally would require pretty much the same tools that we use for shooting boar and deer and you won't generally be finding those tools in an armed response unit that is tailored very specifically to stopping people. You also need to know where to hit the animal for a clean kill which I doubt the average police officer is taught.

You're talking out of your behind.

Nope. And you're mentioning using 7.62 in a built up area!!!! Please. People should end too much time on computer games and watching Hollywood movies.

Shot plenty of 7.62 in my time, cheers

I did note that over penetration is an issue, perhaps you have spot blindness, maybe get that seen too.

And yet you suggest the use of such tools in this environment. And you appear to think a police officer will have been trained where to hit the animal? And that it will be stationary? And that it was broad daylight? Or that they would be permitted to even make the attempt? Or be available? As per usual you head off down naive street.

The role of animal destruction (over dog sized usually) is generally down to rifle officers. Some forces may equip / train their ARV’s officers with necessary equipment if there is a higher need, such as living in an area where deer are always being hit say. There is a much much smaller percentage of officers trained as rifle officers. ARV officers will generally not be trained in animal destruction above domestic animals like dogs (9mm/5.56).

Animal destruction is part of a firearms authority based on unnecessary suffering or causing a danger. Usually other avenues will be explored such as vet… though vets that deal with horse, cattle etc are not as common. Plus there is often a difficulty in them coming out.

It is worth noting that many vets would have to inject an animal. Darting is not something commonly used outside of a zoo environment and even then, it is not knocking something out instantly… it may even make things worse for a bit. Back to injecting, so a Bull or other large animal that could cause them injury, running around, is not being injected. Slaughter house staff will only use their bolt if the animal is secure within a pen and even then they have to be very accurate. Again, something not controlled is not going to have a bolt gun used.

Any shooting of animals must be humane, so the right ammunition should be used and shot placement. Peppering something like a cow with 9mm or 5.56 is not acceptable.

7.62, 12g ‘slug’ and 12g ‘OO’ will be the ammunition options. Some forces may have ‘hunting’ calibre weapons if they have a wildlife park in their area (elephants etc).

The above calibres may be used on its own or as a combination at different points of aim. ‘OO’ think dog, monkey or close range heart shots on something bigger. ‘Slug’ is on larger animals, head/heart. 7.62 larger animals head/heart.

Backdrop is certainly an important consideration. It doesn’t necessarily rule the use of certain ammunition out in urban environments. For example if you can get elevated and be shooting downwards so there is more likelihood of the backdrop being the ground, but then ricochet is then factored in.

I don’t know any other details on this cow that was hit, so not going to make direct comments on it.

I’ve walked many calm loose cows and horses back into a field, but being very wary of their weight. One running around uncontrollably is a very different matter.

Dealt with one bull, where the farmer and vet wouldn’t enter the field. Let alone some notion they would go in and bring it back down with some food or gentle encouragement.

Thanks. Interesting. There is a legal minimum in the U.K. for larger game such as deer. If the police have to comply to that law then it is a capire and grain that would never be used in a built up area unless a proper emergency. And it doesn't seem at all likely that some urban armed response car is going to have a livestock rifle, shotgun or appropriate ammunition on board?

[Evanivitch]

DonkeyApple said:

Nope. You're just naive and village in mentality as always. Lord knows why you're now going on about human targets and that cow wasn't in a town. But plinking some rounds in the CCF makes you a specialist.

You're the one saying FAO aren't trained to shoot a cow. Why's that?

Nope, taken the queen's shilling. And still work with the military. I guess you still find anything with a trigger scary?

[Nibbles_bits]

dickymint said:

Nibbles_bits said:

A firearms response is most definitely a contingency for livestock. My force has a humane dispatch kit, I don't know what's in it, but it won't be 5.56 ammo.
I would imagine the Surrey equivalent is stored at HQ rather than being in the ARV.

You told us that the other day - are you not curious enough to ask your force what it is? Similarly you also stated it was very difficult to find some policy document that you know exists about dangerous animal guidelines - have you found it yet or questioned why you can't find it?

Why would I. I can't use it.
The person that gives authority for it's deployment will know what's in it and where it is.

I said there wasn't a policy on dealing with livestock.

If there's a policy to be found, it's usually, not always, but usually a single keyword search.
Livestock/cattle/cow are not those keywords.

[Nibbles_bits]

DonkeyApple said:

Nope. You're just naive and village in mentality as always. Lord knows why you're now going on about human targets and that cow wasn't in a town. But plinking some rounds in the CCF makes you a specialist.

It wasn't in a town?

You'll notice it's a residential area. With houses. And people. And traffic, including a double decker bus.

Staines-upon-Thames is a market town in northwest Surrey, England, around 17 miles (28 kilometres) west of central London. It is in the Borough of Spelthorne, at the confluence of the River Thames and Colne. Historically part of Middlesex, the town was transferred to Surrey in 1965. Staines is close to Heathrow Airport and is linked to the national motorway network by the M25 and M3. The town is part of the Greater London Built-up Area.

Edited by Nibbles_bits on Thursday 20th June 21:14

[dickymint]

Bigends said:

dickymint said:

Nibbles_bits said:

A firearms response is most definitely a contingency for livestock. My force has a humane dispatch kit, I don't know what's in it, but it won't be 5.56 ammo.
I would imagine the Surrey equivalent is stored at HQ rather than being in the ARV.

You told us that the other day - are you not curious enough to ask your force what it is? Similarly you also stated it was very difficult to find some policy document that you know exists about dangerous animal guidelines - have you found it yet or questioned why you can't find it?

Despatch kits are usually bolt guns as carried by the RSPCA and require proper training to use. Animals also have to have their brains and spinal cords scrambled after use

I know and posted it the other day I also said that I read that the police have stopped using them as too cruel even though the RSPCA use them I,m curious to know if a member of the force has tried to find out what's what.

[swisstoni]

I’m guessing the latest acceptable dispatch methods of livestock is not at the top of the Surrey Constabulary to-do list.

[Bigends]

dickymint said:

Bigends said:

dickymint said:

Nibbles_bits said:

A firearms response is most definitely a contingency for livestock. My force has a humane dispatch kit, I don't know what's in it, but it won't be 5.56 ammo.
I would imagine the Surrey equivalent is stored at HQ rather than being in the ARV.

You told us that the other day - are you not curious enough to ask your force what it is? Similarly you also stated it was very difficult to find some policy document that you know exists about dangerous animal guidelines - have you found it yet or questioned why you can't find it?

Despatch kits are usually bolt guns as carried by the RSPCA and require proper training to use. Animals also have to have their brains and spinal cords scrambled after use

I know and posted it the other day I also said that I read that the police have stopped using them as too cruel even though the RSPCA use them I,m curious to know if a member of the force has tried to find out what's what.

They're used every day in slaughterhouses. Certainly not cruel if used properly..and trained properly as the RSPCA are. Never heard of them ever used by Police.

[dickymint]

swisstoni said:

I’m guessing the latest acceptable dispatch methods of livestock is not at the top of the Surrey Constabulary to-do list.

Probably not but it's very simple for a serving member of the police to ask a simple question and get an answer. It would probably take an FOI request for me to find out lol.

[DonkeyApple]

Evanivitch said:

DonkeyApple said:

Nope. You're just naive and village in mentality as always. Lord knows why you're now going on about human targets and that cow wasn't in a town. But plinking some rounds in the CCF makes you a specialist.

You're the one saying FAO aren't trained to shoot a cow. Why's that?

Nope, taken the queen's shilling. And still work with the military. I guess you still find anything with a trigger scary?

Ah, you were on the balcony. Got it.

As one of the nations leading assassins you will obviously be aware that there is such a concept as humane killing for animals. We aren't going to just have people firing at cows and hoping to hit something. Let's engage brain just for a moment, or you ask the village to borrow it for this, you do actually need to know where to hit the poor thing to get that humane kill and I doubt we waste that much tax payer money training specialist police to handle the worrying cow invasion that some speak of.

[Bigends]

DonkeyApple said:

Evanivitch said:

DonkeyApple said:

Nope. You're just naive and village in mentality as always. Lord knows why you're now going on about human targets and that cow wasn't in a town. But plinking some rounds in the CCF makes you a specialist.

You're the one saying FAO aren't trained to shoot a cow. Why's that?

Nope, taken the queen's shilling. And still work with the military. I guess you still find anything with a trigger scary?

Ah, you were on the balcony. Got it.

As one of the nations leading assassins you will obviously be aware that there is such a concept as humane killing for animals. We aren't going to just have people firing at cows and hoping to hit something. Let's engage brain just for a moment, or you ask the village to borrow it for this, you do actually need to know where to hit the poor thing to get that humane kill and I doubt we waste that much tax payer money training specialist police to handle the worrying cow invasion that some speak of.

Not rocket science where to shoot a cow. Some basic instruction with a vet

Edited by Bigends on Thursday 20th June 22:08

[DonkeyApple]

Nibbles_bits said:

DonkeyApple said:

Nope. You're just naive and village in mentality as always. Lord knows why you're now going on about human targets and that cow wasn't in a town. But plinking some rounds in the CCF makes you a specialist.

It wasn't in a town?

You'll notice it's a residential area. With houses. And people. And traffic, including a double decker bus.

Staines-upon-Thames is a market town in northwest Surrey, England, around 17 miles (28 kilometres) west of central London. It is in the Borough of Spelthorne, at the confluence of the River Thames and Colne. Historically part of Middlesex, the town was transferred to Surrey in 1965. Staines is close to Heathrow Airport and is linked to the national motorway network by the M25 and M3. The town is part of the Greater London Built-up Area.

Edited by Nibbles_bits on Thursday 20th June 21:14

Precisely the point. The example given of the Welsh cow whack wasn't in a town, this poor bigger was which kind of dictates how many high powered rifle rounds someone is going to be willing to lob down the range in the hopes of hitting the right bit of a cow.

[DonkeyApple]

swisstoni said:

I’m guessing the latest acceptable dispatch methods of livestock is not at the top of the Surrey Constabulary to-do list.

Only if they've been in a 'Spoons and are kicking off at the kebab van.

[DonkeyApple]

said:

Not rocket science where to shoot a cow

It'll be the same as it is for deer.

As absolutely everyone knows:

'The aim point is halfway up the chest and in line with or just behind the vertical line of the lower foreleg, the head should be up. Chest shot frontal and frontal oblique, horizontal As the deer turns towards the rifle: the target area decreases, requiring a greater degree of accuracy to place the shot.

Now, as you notice, that's not going to be how the police are trained. The taxpayer doesn't generally need to be protected from Gary the whacked out ruminant on the council estate after an afternoon on the Stella and Coke.

You'll also notice that a skittish calf/cow moving about isn't going to be presenting that humane target.

And, as there are laws as to the minimum calibre and power allowed one isn't very likely to be using that in a town.

[Cold]

How did they eventually catch this calf? It wasn't caught by hitting it with a 4x4, but by another method. Possibly a bloke with a wide hat and a lasso?

Instead of all this talk about guns, vets and magic bullets why don't they just do whatever they did after the bumper incident?

[swisstoni]

Cold said:

How did they eventually catch this calf? It wasn't caught by hitting it with a 4x4, but by another method. Possibly a bloke with a wide hat and a lasso?

Instead of all this talk about guns, vets and magic bullets why don't they just do whatever they did after the bumper incident?

Park on them?

[dickymint]

Cold said:

How did they eventually catch this calf? It wasn't caught by hitting it with a 4x4, but by another method. Possibly a bloke with a wide hat and a lasso?

Instead of all this talk about guns, vets and magic bullets why don't they just do whatever they did after the bumper incident?

I have been asking this for days and in particular how long before it was finally captured and what was this mad rampant killer beast doing in the meantime

[Nibbles_bits]

swisstoni said:

Cold said:

How did they eventually catch this calf? It wasn't caught by hitting it with a 4x4, but by another method. Possibly a bloke with a wide hat and a lasso?

Instead of all this talk about guns, vets and magic bullets why don't they just do whatever they did after the bumper incident?

Park on them?