Police run over calf - reasonable?

[Evanivitch]

DonkeyApple said:

Evanivitch said:

DonkeyApple said:

Do you not suspect that different firearms and different ammunition are used for different tasks?

I'd imagine that that shooting a cow cleanly and professionally would require pretty much the same tools that we use for shooting boar and deer and you won't generally be finding those tools in an armed response unit that is tailored very specifically to stopping people. You also need to know where to hit the animal for a clean kill which I doubt the average police officer is taught.

You're talking out of your behind.

Nope. And you're mentioning using 7.62 in a built up area!!!! Please. People should end too much time on computer games and watching Hollywood movies.

Shot plenty of 7.62 in my time, cheers

I did note that over penetration is an issue, perhaps you have spot blindness, maybe get that seen too.

[Evanivitch]

Bigends said:

So, what round would be required to put a young calf down with? I had mates on our forces firearms unit - they certainly had training for destroying animals.

7.62 definitely, 5.56 probably and a 9mm if you're putting it out of it's misery, sure. It's widely reported police use hollow points on pistol rounds, but not sure that's the case with rifles too.

Regardless of the calibre, you have to make considerations for a miss, so the backstop has to be considered either way.

[DonkeyApple]

Evanivitch said:

DonkeyApple said:

Evanivitch said:

DonkeyApple said:

Do you not suspect that different firearms and different ammunition are used for different tasks?

I'd imagine that that shooting a cow cleanly and professionally would require pretty much the same tools that we use for shooting boar and deer and you won't generally be finding those tools in an armed response unit that is tailored very specifically to stopping people. You also need to know where to hit the animal for a clean kill which I doubt the average police officer is taught.

You're talking out of your behind.

Nope. And you're mentioning using 7.62 in a built up area!!!! Please. People should end too much time on computer games and watching Hollywood movies.

Shot plenty of 7.62 in my time, cheers

I did note that over penetration is an issue, perhaps you have spot blindness, maybe get that seen too.

And yet you suggest the use of such tools in this environment. And you appear to think a police officer will have been trained where to hit the animal? And that it will be stationary? And that it was broad daylight? Or that they would be permitted to even make the attempt? Or be available? As per usual you head off down naive street.

[dickymint]

DonkeyApple said:

Bigends said:

Incident ongoing for several hours - why werent firearms called out and the calf dealt with properly and humanely? - One question that needs answering

What kind of standard police firearm will ensure the clean kill of a cow? And how do you get the cow to stand still while saying 'you'll never take me alive, pig!' And why would we want such weapons being fired in a residential area and the risk that entails when the cow can just be hot with a vehicle without risking anyone?

The weapons and ammunition that is designed to stop humans and which are only used in a built up area as an absolute last resort won't happily stop a cow, nor will the cow tend to be stationary etc.

To be honest, I wouldn't have thought the use of an armed response team would feature at all among any of the options.

Ummm maybe the same type as used against some nutter roaming the streets with a knife/gun? I know which is less likely to be a harm to the public and it's not a cow. Personally I'd prefer to calmly walk up to the cow and jab it with a very strong sedative on a syringe pole.

[dickymint]

Just caught this on the Welsh news....... even though it harms my defence of the Staines event...............


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1ddvgl911ro.a...

Edited by dickymint on Thursday 20th June 20:04

[loskie]

dickymint said:

DonkeyApple said:

Bigends said:

Incident ongoing for several hours - why werent firearms called out and the calf dealt with properly and humanely? - One question that needs answering

What kind of standard police firearm will ensure the clean kill of a cow? And how do you get the cow to stand still while saying 'you'll never take me alive, pig!' And why would we want such weapons being fired in a residential area and the risk that entails when the cow can just be hot with a vehicle without risking anyone?

The weapons and ammunition that is designed to stop humans and which are only used in a built up area as an absolute last resort won't happily stop a cow, nor will the cow tend to be stationary etc.

To be honest, I wouldn't have thought the use of an armed response team would feature at all among any of the options.

Ummm maybe the same type as used against some nutter roaming the streets with a knife/gun? I know which is less likely to be a harm to the public and it's not a cow. Personally I'd prefer to calmly walk up to the cow and jab it with a very strong sedative on a syringe pole.

which can only be done legally by a vet

[Bigends]

dickymint said:

Just caught this on the Welsh news....... even though it harms my defence of the Staines event...............


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1ddvgl911ro.a...

Edited by dickymint on Thursday 20th June 20:04

That was a big old 9yr old beast. The Staines monster was a waist high calf

[DonkeyApple]

dickymint said:

Ummm maybe the same type as used against some nutter roaming the streets with a knife/gun? I know which is less likely to be a harm to the public and it's not a cow. Personally I'd prefer to calmly walk up to the cow and jab it with a very strong sedative on a syringe pole.

Don't forget there's a reason we don't make sofas out of street roaming nutter skin. Some may think it is because that would be insanely barbaric but the truth is that it's just not tough like cow hide.

The sort of round you'd use to get through cow hide and muscle to the heart is a lot pokier than what I suspect the police use in built upon areas where they will be trading away that sort of power for safety reasons. I suspect something like a 9mm would just bounce off a cow's skull. . But joking aside trying to hit a moving cow in the right place, in the dark, with a sufficiently powerful rifle, in a built up area would just be totally mad. And if using a shotgun you'd be using something like SSG cartridges which again would be mad to be using in town.

Jabbing it with a syringe on a pole would require getting close enough to a jittery animal which would be hard enough and that's if you could find someone with any equipment like that who is awake, contactable, has the equipment to hand or could even get there within any sensible time period.

I do suspect that the fact the poor police had to resort to using a vehicle tells us that all sane avenues had been exhausted.

[Nibbles_bits]

Bigends said:

Nibbles_bits said:

Hungrymc said:

Nibbles_bits said:

Tenacious said:

Nibbles_bits said:

Stella Tortoise said:

Nibbles_bits said:

Bigends said:

Its fortunate in a way that the calf finished up as walking wounded. Had it broken a leg or two and lay or staggered around bellowing in agony with the Police having no immediate means to finish it off then the level of criticism levelled now would be as nothing. Its more by luck than judgement that this wasnt the case. The driver had no idea as what the consequences of their action were likely to be. I wonder what they hoped to achieve by running the calf over - was the aim to kill it or merely disable - theyll have to explain this to the enquiry

Obviously he wanted to kill it. He's out of control. Really should have been weeded out by vetting.

Policemanladyperson bad

I hope that you are not a serving police officer.

In what way?

Because I don't think, based on the information, the officer did wrong?

Or because the comment is sarcastic?

Because as a serving police officer, you're "conditioned" to believe your fellow colleagues can do no wrong. I don't blame you, I blame the poor training you receive as you all need to keep each others backs for when the poop hits the fans and no one wants a rogue officer in the Freemasons police force.

There's plenty of Officers deservedly getting the boot, this won't be one of them.

But the original post in this quote asked a couple of valid questions.

You're happy to make your judgment without those questions being answered. Thats what I find notable. Investigative mind, but not when its an officer instead of a member of the public.

Here's what we know -
Calf on the loose
Residential area
Report of vehicles being damaged
Report of people at risk
Incident ongoing for several hours
Attempts made to contact a vet
Attempts made to contact a/the farmer
IOPC not investigating.

Here's some rumours -
Calf hitting bus
Calf knocking pedestrian down
Farmer aware of loose Calf, but not interested

Here's what I know -
I have 'advice' on how to deal with livestock. It's not training, it's not policy, it's just advice.

= based on the above, the Officer did the right thing in these circumstances.

Incident ongoing for several hours - why werent firearms called out and the calf dealt with properly and humanely? - One question that needs answering

Because then the calf would be dead.

The fact that it isn't is just luck, but it is alive and well, something it wouldn't be if Firearms were called to dispatch it.

[DonkeyApple]

Bigends said:

dickymint said:

Just caught this on the Welsh news....... even though it harms my defence of the Staines event...............


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1ddvgl911ro.a...

Edited by dickymint on Thursday 20th June 20:04

That was a big old 9yr old beast. The Staines monster was a waist high calf

True but I'm 18 stone and have been knocked over by calf. They're bloody solid and when they've been hand reared are perfectly friendly but will still suddenly pull some John Travolta dance moves randomly out of the bag and send you base over apex.

[Nibbles_bits]

DonkeyApple said:

Bigends said:

Incident ongoing for several hours - why werent firearms called out and the calf dealt with properly and humanely? - One question that needs answering

What kind of standard police firearm will ensure the clean kill of a cow? And how do you get the cow to stand still while saying 'you'll never take me alive, pig!' And why would we want such weapons being fired in a residential area and the risk that entails when the cow can just be hot with a vehicle without risking anyone?

The weapons and ammunition that is designed to stop humans and which are only used in a built up area as an absolute last resort won't happily stop a cow, nor will the cow tend to be stationary etc.

To be honest, I wouldn't have thought the use of an armed response team would feature at all among any of the options.

A firearms response is most definitely a contingency for livestock. My force has a humane dispatch kit, I don't know what's in it, but it won't be 5.56 ammo.
I would imagine the Surrey equivalent is stored at HQ rather than being in the ARV.

[Nibbles_bits]

Greendubber said:

DonkeyApple said:

Bigends said:

DonkeyApple said:

Bigends said:

Incident ongoing for several hours - why werent firearms called out and the calf dealt with properly and humanely? - One question that needs answering

What kind of standard police firearm will ensure the clean kill of a cow? And how do you get the cow to stand still while saying 'you'll never take me alive, pig!' And why would we want such weapons being fired in a residential area and the risk that entails when the cow can just be hot with a vehicle without risking anyone?

The weapons and ammunition that is designed to stop humans and which are only used in a built up area as an absolute last resort won't happily stop a cow, nor will the cow tend to be stationary etc.

To be honest, I wouldn't have thought the use of an armed response team would feature at all among any of the options.

So whats the reasonable, humane option then other than running it over with a 4x4.

This from Sussex/Surrey firearms policy
Criteria for Deployment of Armed Officers
5.1 The deployment of AFOs should only be authorised where the officer authorising the
deployment has reason to suppose that officers may have to protect themselves or
others from a person who:
• Is in possession of, or has immediate access to, a firearm or other potentially lethal
weapon or
• Is otherwise so dangerous that the deployment of armed officers is considered to be
appropriate or
• As an operational contingency in a specific operation based on the threat assessment
or
• For the destruction of animals which are dangerous or are suffering unnecessarily.

Also the animal welfare act should be considered -
The considerations to which it is relevant to have regard when determining for the purposes of this section whether suffering is unnecessary include—
(a)whether the suffering could reasonably have been avoided or reduced;
(b)whether the conduct which caused the suffering was in compliance with any relevant enactment or any relevant provisions of a licence or code of practice issued under an enactment;
(c)whether the conduct which caused the suffering was for a legitimate purpose, such as—
(i)the purpose of benefiting the animal, or
(ii)the purpose of protecting a person, property or another animal;
(d)whether the suffering was proportionate to the purpose of the conduct concerned;
(e)whether the conduct concerned was in all the circumstances that of a reasonably competent and humane person.

Edited by Bigends on Thursday 20th June 17:37

Do you not suspect that different firearms and different ammunition are used for different tasks?

I'd imagine that that shooting a cow cleanly and professionally would require pretty much the same tools that we use for shooting boar and deer and you won't generally be finding those tools in an armed response unit that is tailored very specifically to stopping people. You also need to know where to hit the animal for a clean kill which I doubt the average police officer is taught.

So, that covered and all other sane solutions covered off what do you think that left as the final option for the unfortunate police on the scene with the duty and responsibility to ultimately just stop the poor cow? And outside of any defensive bravado do you not suspect that the policeman feels awful for having to resort to doing what he did? And now the poor person has to go through all the hoops and stress of an inquiry and worry about their career prospects and potentially even their mortgage.

Bigends would have smothered it with his police cape before riding it back to the farm he no doubt had a fabulous working relationship with and had on speed dial.

Imagine if the cops had shot this animal and what people would be saying......

Bigends, are you Nick Berry?
Are you trying to live out your Heartbeat fantasies?

[Evanivitch]

DonkeyApple said:

And yet you suggest the use of such tools in this environment. And you appear to think a police officer will have been trained where to hit the animal? And that it will be stationary? And that it was broad daylight? Or that they would be permitted to even make the attempt? Or be available? As per usual you head off down naive street.

Do you think the police shoot real human targets to practice shooting humans? How many kills before you're qualified?

You haven't a clue. It's quite funny you're trying

Back in your box.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-60838732

[Nibbles_bits]

dickymint said:

Just caught this on the Welsh news....... even though it harms my defence of the Staines event...............


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1ddvgl911ro.a...

Edited by dickymint on Thursday 20th June 20:04

Why didn’t he just calmly lead it back to the farm??


/s

[Bigends]

Nibbles_bits said:

dickymint said:

Just caught this on the Welsh news....... even though it harms my defence of the Staines event...............


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1ddvgl911ro.a...

Edited by dickymint on Thursday 20th June 20:04

Why didn’t he just calmly lead it back to the farm??


/s

Not a hope - have you seen the size of one of those things?

[Nibbles_bits]

Bigends said:

Nibbles_bits said:

dickymint said:

Just caught this on the Welsh news....... even though it harms my defence of the Staines event...............


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1ddvgl911ro.a...

Edited by dickymint on Thursday 20th June 20:04

Why didn’t he just calmly lead it back to the farm??


/s

Not a hope - have you seen the size of one of those things?

But plenty of people here claim to have done just that!

[Bigends]

Nibbles_bits said:

Greendubber said:

DonkeyApple said:

Bigends said:

DonkeyApple said:

Bigends said:

Incident ongoing for several hours - why werent firearms called out and the calf dealt with properly and humanely? - One question that needs answering

What kind of standard police firearm will ensure the clean kill of a cow? And how do you get the cow to stand still while saying 'you'll never take me alive, pig!' And why would we want such weapons being fired in a residential area and the risk that entails when the cow can just be hot with a vehicle without risking anyone?

The weapons and ammunition that is designed to stop humans and which are only used in a built up area as an absolute last resort won't happily stop a cow, nor will the cow tend to be stationary etc.

To be honest, I wouldn't have thought the use of an armed response team would feature at all among any of the options.

So whats the reasonable, humane option then other than running it over with a 4x4.

This from Sussex/Surrey firearms policy
Criteria for Deployment of Armed Officers
5.1 The deployment of AFOs should only be authorised where the officer authorising the
deployment has reason to suppose that officers may have to protect themselves or
others from a person who:
• Is in possession of, or has immediate access to, a firearm or other potentially lethal
weapon or
• Is otherwise so dangerous that the deployment of armed officers is considered to be
appropriate or
• As an operational contingency in a specific operation based on the threat assessment
or
• For the destruction of animals which are dangerous or are suffering unnecessarily.

Also the animal welfare act should be considered -
The considerations to which it is relevant to have regard when determining for the purposes of this section whether suffering is unnecessary include—
(a)whether the suffering could reasonably have been avoided or reduced;
(b)whether the conduct which caused the suffering was in compliance with any relevant enactment or any relevant provisions of a licence or code of practice issued under an enactment;
(c)whether the conduct which caused the suffering was for a legitimate purpose, such as—
(i)the purpose of benefiting the animal, or
(ii)the purpose of protecting a person, property or another animal;
(d)whether the suffering was proportionate to the purpose of the conduct concerned;
(e)whether the conduct concerned was in all the circumstances that of a reasonably competent and humane person.

Edited by Bigends on Thursday 20th June 17:37

Do you not suspect that different firearms and different ammunition are used for different tasks?

I'd imagine that that shooting a cow cleanly and professionally would require pretty much the same tools that we use for shooting boar and deer and you won't generally be finding those tools in an armed response unit that is tailored very specifically to stopping people. You also need to know where to hit the animal for a clean kill which I doubt the average police officer is taught.

So, that covered and all other sane solutions covered off what do you think that left as the final option for the unfortunate police on the scene with the duty and responsibility to ultimately just stop the poor cow? And outside of any defensive bravado do you not suspect that the policeman feels awful for having to resort to doing what he did? And now the poor person has to go through all the hoops and stress of an inquiry and worry about their career prospects and potentially even their mortgage.

Bigends would have smothered it with his police cape before riding it back to the farm he no doubt had a fabulous working relationship with and had on speed dial.

Imagine if the cops had shot this animal and what people would be saying......

Bigends, are you Nick Berry?
Are you trying to live out your Heartbeat fantasies?

Crikey - a double hit by Greendubber and Nibbles on one post - i'm doing well on this one, in which I merely posted Sureys firearms policy - i.e. deploying firearms to deal with dangerous animals. Havent once criticised the officer have I? .and yes..dealt with plenty of strays over the years.( p.s. I lived them out over my 30 - no need to try!)

[dickymint]

Bigends said:

dickymint said:

Just caught this on the Welsh news....... even though it harms my defence of the Staines event...............


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1ddvgl911ro.a...

Edited by dickymint on Thursday 20th June 20:04

That was a big old 9yr old beast. The Staines monster was a waist high calf

I know and agree - I was just pre-empting the incoming

[LM240]

DonkeyApple said:

Evanivitch said:

DonkeyApple said:

Evanivitch said:

DonkeyApple said:

Do you not suspect that different firearms and different ammunition are used for different tasks?

I'd imagine that that shooting a cow cleanly and professionally would require pretty much the same tools that we use for shooting boar and deer and you won't generally be finding those tools in an armed response unit that is tailored very specifically to stopping people. You also need to know where to hit the animal for a clean kill which I doubt the average police officer is taught.

You're talking out of your behind.

Nope. And you're mentioning using 7.62 in a built up area!!!! Please. People should end too much time on computer games and watching Hollywood movies.

Shot plenty of 7.62 in my time, cheers

I did note that over penetration is an issue, perhaps you have spot blindness, maybe get that seen too.

And yet you suggest the use of such tools in this environment. And you appear to think a police officer will have been trained where to hit the animal? And that it will be stationary? And that it was broad daylight? Or that they would be permitted to even make the attempt? Or be available? As per usual you head off down naive street.

The role of animal destruction (over dog sized usually) is generally down to rifle officers. Some forces may equip / train their ARV’s officers with necessary equipment if there is a higher need, such as living in an area where deer are always being hit say. There is a much much smaller percentage of officers trained as rifle officers. ARV officers will generally not be trained in animal destruction above domestic animals like dogs (9mm/5.56).

Animal destruction is part of a firearms authority based on unnecessary suffering or causing a danger. Usually other avenues will be explored such as vet… though vets that deal with horse, cattle etc are not as common. Plus there is often a difficulty in them coming out.

It is worth noting that many vets would have to inject an animal. Darting is not something commonly used outside of a zoo environment and even then, it is not knocking something out instantly… it may even make things worse for a bit. Back to injecting, so a Bull or other large animal that could cause them injury, running around, is not being injected. Slaughter house staff will only use their bolt if the animal is secure within a pen and even then they have to be very accurate. Again, something not controlled is not going to have a bolt gun used.

Any shooting of animals must be humane, so the right ammunition should be used and shot placement. Peppering something like a cow with 9mm or 5.56 is not acceptable.

7.62, 12g ‘slug’ and 12g ‘OO’ will be the ammunition options. Some forces may have ‘hunting’ calibre weapons if they have a wildlife park in their area (elephants etc).

The above calibres may be used on its own or as a combination at different points of aim. ‘OO’ think dog, monkey or close range heart shots on something bigger. ‘Slug’ is on larger animals, head/heart. 7.62 larger animals head/heart.

Backdrop is certainly an important consideration. It doesn’t necessarily rule the use of certain ammunition out in urban environments. For example if you can get elevated and be shooting downwards so there is more likelihood of the backdrop being the ground, but then ricochet is then factored in.

I don’t know any other details on this cow that was hit, so not going to make direct comments on it.

I’ve walked many calm loose cows and horses back into a field, but being very wary of their weight. One running around uncontrollably is a very different matter.

Dealt with one bull, where the farmer and vet wouldn’t enter the field. Let alone some notion they would go in and bring it back down with some food or gentle encouragement.

[Bigends]

dickymint said:

Bigends said:

dickymint said:

Just caught this on the Welsh news....... even though it harms my defence of the Staines event...............


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1ddvgl911ro.a...

Edited by dickymint on Thursday 20th June 20:04

That was a big old 9yr old beast. The Staines monster was a waist high calf

I know and agree - I was just pre-empting the incoming

Heres the beast