Police run over calf - reasonable?
Discussion
Evanivitch said:
DonkeyApple said:
Evanivitch said:
DonkeyApple said:
They wouldn't last for long and die a pretty horrible death as even the old, hardy breeds are still manmade, not natural so require ongoing maintenance.
Proper hardy domestic breeds are still pretty robust to most the UK can throw at them. Provided that is they're not kept on intensively grazed land with no natural shelter.At the other end of the spectrum, there are certainly breeds of some domesticated livestock, e.g. some broiler chicken breeds, that need to be killed after a certain level of development because otherwise they'll bulk out way beyond what their skeletons and organs can support and letting them live on would be cruel. Which is nice.
Edited by ATG on Thursday 20th June 13:48
ATG said:
Is it St Kilda that's now got a small population of feral cattle that have sustained themselves over quite a few generations? One of the Scottish islands, anyway.
At the other end of the spectrum, there are certainly breeds of some domesticated livestock, e.g. some broiler chicken breeds, that need to be killed after a certain level of development because otherwise they'll bulk out way beyond what their skeletons and organs can support and letting them live on would be cruel. Which is nice.
At Kilda is more famous for its starving and diseased 'wild' sheep. 'Wild' being a term in this instance for abandoned domesticated animals. They were healthy until their only predator left around 90 years ago. At the other end of the spectrum, there are certainly breeds of some domesticated livestock, e.g. some broiler chicken breeds, that need to be killed after a certain level of development because otherwise they'll bulk out way beyond what their skeletons and organs can support and letting them live on would be cruel. Which is nice.
Edited by ATG on Thursday 20th June 13:48
It's the slight fly in the ointment of the few who argue that domesticated livestock should be released or that they'll look after themselves just fine. They die of disease and starvation unless someone shoots them on a regular and managed basis. With deer this can be monetised so it gets done until some nutter tries to stop it because they want them to die more horribly but no one is going to pay to shoot a sheep and no one cares enough about sheep to put their hand in their pocket to pay to have the right thing done. And so you end up with miserable situations like last year where someone can be arsed to go to Kilda, have a look at the sheep and realise that they're in a miserable state of neglect. They go home and report this but a year on, sweet FA has been done because no one actually cares enough to put up their own money to manage the herd.
Farmers and their regulators go to great lengths to keep gene pools healthy, they cull the diseased and the weak to stop their suffering and we get yummy local meat that is free of disease and has been reared well.
DonkeyApple said:
At Kilda is more famous for its starving and diseased 'wild' sheep. 'Wild' being a term in this instance for abandoned domesticated animals. They were healthy until their only predator left around 90 years ago.
It's the slight fly in the ointment of the few who argue that domesticated livestock should be released or that they'll look after themselves just fine. They die of disease and starvation unless someone shoots them on a regular and managed basis. With deer this can be monetised so it gets done until some nutter tries to stop it because they want them to die more horribly but no one is going to pay to shoot a sheep and no one cares enough about sheep to put their hand in their pocket to pay to have the right thing done. And so you end up with miserable situations like last year where someone can be arsed to go to Kilda, have a look at the sheep and realise that they're in a miserable state of neglect. They go home and report this but a year on, sweet FA has been done because no one actually cares enough to put up their own money to manage the herd.
Farmers and their regulators go to great lengths to keep gene pools healthy, they cull the diseased and the weak to stop their suffering and we get yummy local meat that is free of disease and has been reared well.
Ahem, https://news.sky.com/story/american-hunter-who-kil...It's the slight fly in the ointment of the few who argue that domesticated livestock should be released or that they'll look after themselves just fine. They die of disease and starvation unless someone shoots them on a regular and managed basis. With deer this can be monetised so it gets done until some nutter tries to stop it because they want them to die more horribly but no one is going to pay to shoot a sheep and no one cares enough about sheep to put their hand in their pocket to pay to have the right thing done. And so you end up with miserable situations like last year where someone can be arsed to go to Kilda, have a look at the sheep and realise that they're in a miserable state of neglect. They go home and report this but a year on, sweet FA has been done because no one actually cares enough to put up their own money to manage the herd.
Farmers and their regulators go to great lengths to keep gene pools healthy, they cull the diseased and the weak to stop their suffering and we get yummy local meat that is free of disease and has been reared well.
Somewhatfoolish said:
What about the Chillingham Wild Cattle? AIUI they're only fed a bit of hay in winter cause there's a bit too many of them otherwise they're left to their own devices (and presumably if not fed the hay would mostly survive)
Pretty close. Probably about as close as you get. But they've been fed over winter for the last 300 years and the sick are culled. wc98 said:
Apart from it being a goat. 
. That said, I'm sure you would find an American up to the task of shooting a sheep. You could do it with robot rifles and online like they do for them in Africa so as to not discriminate against the ones too fat to fit on a plane. Hungrymc said:
Nibbles_bits said:
Tenacious said:
Nibbles_bits said:
Stella Tortoise said:
Nibbles_bits said:
Bigends said:
Its fortunate in a way that the calf finished up as walking wounded. Had it broken a leg or two and lay or staggered around bellowing in agony with the Police having no immediate means to finish it off then the level of criticism levelled now would be as nothing. Its more by luck than judgement that this wasnt the case. The driver had no idea as what the consequences of their action were likely to be. I wonder what they hoped to achieve by running the calf over - was the aim to kill it or merely disable - theyll have to explain this to the enquiry
Obviously he wanted to kill it. He's out of control. Really should have been weeded out by vetting.Policemanladyperson bad
Because I don't think, based on the information, the officer did wrong?
Or because the comment is sarcastic?
You're happy to make your judgment without those questions being answered. Thats what I find notable. Investigative mind, but not when its an officer instead of a member of the public.
Calf on the loose
Residential area
Report of vehicles being damaged
Report of people at risk
Incident ongoing for several hours
Attempts made to contact a vet
Attempts made to contact a/the farmer
IOPC not investigating.
Here's some rumours -
Calf hitting bus
Calf knocking pedestrian down
Farmer aware of loose Calf, but not interested
Here's what I know -
I have 'advice' on how to deal with livestock. It's not training, it's not policy, it's just advice.
= based on the above, the Officer did the right thing in these circumstances.
Nibbles_bits said:
Hungrymc said:
Nibbles_bits said:
Tenacious said:
Nibbles_bits said:
Stella Tortoise said:
Nibbles_bits said:
Bigends said:
Its fortunate in a way that the calf finished up as walking wounded. Had it broken a leg or two and lay or staggered around bellowing in agony with the Police having no immediate means to finish it off then the level of criticism levelled now would be as nothing. Its more by luck than judgement that this wasnt the case. The driver had no idea as what the consequences of their action were likely to be. I wonder what they hoped to achieve by running the calf over - was the aim to kill it or merely disable - theyll have to explain this to the enquiry
Obviously he wanted to kill it. He's out of control. Really should have been weeded out by vetting.Policemanladyperson bad
Because I don't think, based on the information, the officer did wrong?
Or because the comment is sarcastic?
You're happy to make your judgment without those questions being answered. Thats what I find notable. Investigative mind, but not when its an officer instead of a member of the public.
Calf on the loose
Residential area
Report of vehicles being damaged
Report of people at risk
Incident ongoing for several hours
Attempts made to contact a vet
Attempts made to contact a/the farmer
IOPC not investigating.
Here's some rumours -
Calf hitting bus
Calf knocking pedestrian down
Farmer aware of loose Calf, but not interested
Here's what I know -
I have 'advice' on how to deal with livestock. It's not training, it's not policy, it's just advice.
= based on the above, the Officer did the right thing in these circumstances.
DonkeyApple said:
Let's be serious for a moment. They can't and the ultimate reason is extremely obvious. Sheep because they just love to die horrible deaths but even your hardiest of remaining bovines breeds have the same problem that deer have.
I specifically didn't mention sheep because sheep are fingers stupid. Goats would be better.Lack of predators is a human constraint. As would be fences and other restrictions on grazing. So yes, if we insist on shooting any predator bigger than a farm cat then that's an artificial human interaction, just like feeding would be.
Countries like Australia are a perfect example of what happens when domestic breeds like pigs are left feral (though pigs have their own issues).
Farmers breed disease resistance in cattle because they insist on keeping them in conditions that allow disease to grow and spread.
Bigends said:
Incident ongoing for several hours - why werent firearms called out and the calf dealt with properly and humanely? - One question that needs answering
What kind of standard police firearm will ensure the clean kill of a cow? And how do you get the cow to stand still while saying 'you'll never take me alive, pig!' And why would we want such weapons being fired in a residential area and the risk that entails when the cow can just be hot with a vehicle without risking anyone?The weapons and ammunition that is designed to stop humans and which are only used in a built up area as an absolute last resort won't happily stop a cow, nor will the cow tend to be stationary etc.
To be honest, I wouldn't have thought the use of an armed response team would feature at all among any of the options.
DonkeyApple said:
Bigends said:
Incident ongoing for several hours - why werent firearms called out and the calf dealt with properly and humanely? - One question that needs answering
What kind of standard police firearm will ensure the clean kill of a cow? And how do you get the cow to stand still while saying 'you'll never take me alive, pig!' And why would we want such weapons being fired in a residential area and the risk that entails when the cow can just be hot with a vehicle without risking anyone?The weapons and ammunition that is designed to stop humans and which are only used in a built up area as an absolute last resort won't happily stop a cow, nor will the cow tend to be stationary etc.
To be honest, I wouldn't have thought the use of an armed response team would feature at all among any of the options.
This from Sussex/Surrey firearms policy
Criteria for Deployment of Armed Officers
5.1 The deployment of AFOs should only be authorised where the officer authorising the
deployment has reason to suppose that officers may have to protect themselves or
others from a person who:
• Is in possession of, or has immediate access to, a firearm or other potentially lethal
weapon or
• Is otherwise so dangerous that the deployment of armed officers is considered to be
appropriate or
• As an operational contingency in a specific operation based on the threat assessment
or
• For the destruction of animals which are dangerous or are suffering unnecessarily.
Also the animal welfare act should be considered -
The considerations to which it is relevant to have regard when determining for the purposes of this section whether suffering is unnecessary include—
(a)whether the suffering could reasonably have been avoided or reduced;
(b)whether the conduct which caused the suffering was in compliance with any relevant enactment or any relevant provisions of a licence or code of practice issued under an enactment;
(c)whether the conduct which caused the suffering was for a legitimate purpose, such as—
(i)the purpose of benefiting the animal, or
(ii)the purpose of protecting a person, property or another animal;
(d)whether the suffering was proportionate to the purpose of the conduct concerned;
(e)whether the conduct concerned was in all the circumstances that of a reasonably competent and humane person.
Edited by Bigends on Thursday 20th June 17:37
DonkeyApple said:
What kind of standard police firearm will ensure the clean kill of a cow? And how do you get the cow to stand still while saying 'you'll never take me alive, pig!' And why would we want such weapons being fired in a residential area and the risk that entails when the cow can just be hot with a vehicle without risking anyone?
Loads of UK police forces use 7.62 NATO rifles. Not sure if they use hollow points in rifles that size, but over penetration would be a concern. Alternatively, a shotgun slug.Evanivitch said:
DonkeyApple said:
What kind of standard police firearm will ensure the clean kill of a cow? And how do you get the cow to stand still while saying 'you'll never take me alive, pig!' And why would we want such weapons being fired in a residential area and the risk that entails when the cow can just be hot with a vehicle without risking anyone?
Loads of UK police forces use 7.62 NATO rifles. Not sure if they use hollow points in rifles that size, but over penetration would be a concern. Alternatively, a shotgun slug.Several cows and bulls were shot by police after escaping and running loose on roads. A cow was shot in Penrith, Cumbria when attempts at capture proved unsuccessful, after escaping from Auction Mart and running amok injuring a pedestrian, another that escaped from an abattoir in Kingstown, Carlisle, was also shot after it could not be captured.
Bigends said:
DonkeyApple said:
Bigends said:
Incident ongoing for several hours - why werent firearms called out and the calf dealt with properly and humanely? - One question that needs answering
What kind of standard police firearm will ensure the clean kill of a cow? And how do you get the cow to stand still while saying 'you'll never take me alive, pig!' And why would we want such weapons being fired in a residential area and the risk that entails when the cow can just be hot with a vehicle without risking anyone?The weapons and ammunition that is designed to stop humans and which are only used in a built up area as an absolute last resort won't happily stop a cow, nor will the cow tend to be stationary etc.
To be honest, I wouldn't have thought the use of an armed response team would feature at all among any of the options.
This from Sussex/Surrey firearms policy
Criteria for Deployment of Armed Officers
5.1 The deployment of AFOs should only be authorised where the officer authorising the
deployment has reason to suppose that officers may have to protect themselves or
others from a person who:
• Is in possession of, or has immediate access to, a firearm or other potentially lethal
weapon or
• Is otherwise so dangerous that the deployment of armed officers is considered to be
appropriate or
• As an operational contingency in a specific operation based on the threat assessment
or
• For the destruction of animals which are dangerous or are suffering unnecessarily.
Also the animal welfare act should be considered -
The considerations to which it is relevant to have regard when determining for the purposes of this section whether suffering is unnecessary include—
(a)whether the suffering could reasonably have been avoided or reduced;
(b)whether the conduct which caused the suffering was in compliance with any relevant enactment or any relevant provisions of a licence or code of practice issued under an enactment;
(c)whether the conduct which caused the suffering was for a legitimate purpose, such as—
(i)the purpose of benefiting the animal, or
(ii)the purpose of protecting a person, property or another animal;
(d)whether the suffering was proportionate to the purpose of the conduct concerned;
(e)whether the conduct concerned was in all the circumstances that of a reasonably competent and humane person.
Edited by Bigends on Thursday 20th June 17:37
I'd imagine that that shooting a cow cleanly and professionally would require pretty much the same tools that we use for shooting boar and deer and you won't generally be finding those tools in an armed response unit that is tailored very specifically to stopping people. You also need to know where to hit the animal for a clean kill which I doubt the average police officer is taught.
So, that covered and all other sane solutions covered off what do you think that left as the final option for the unfortunate police on the scene with the duty and responsibility to ultimately just stop the poor cow? And outside of any defensive bravado do you not suspect that the policeman feels awful for having to resort to doing what he did? And now the poor person has to go through all the hoops and stress of an inquiry and worry about their career prospects and potentially even their mortgage.
DonkeyApple said:
Bigends said:
DonkeyApple said:
Bigends said:
Incident ongoing for several hours - why werent firearms called out and the calf dealt with properly and humanely? - One question that needs answering
What kind of standard police firearm will ensure the clean kill of a cow? And how do you get the cow to stand still while saying 'you'll never take me alive, pig!' And why would we want such weapons being fired in a residential area and the risk that entails when the cow can just be hot with a vehicle without risking anyone?The weapons and ammunition that is designed to stop humans and which are only used in a built up area as an absolute last resort won't happily stop a cow, nor will the cow tend to be stationary etc.
To be honest, I wouldn't have thought the use of an armed response team would feature at all among any of the options.
This from Sussex/Surrey firearms policy
Criteria for Deployment of Armed Officers
5.1 The deployment of AFOs should only be authorised where the officer authorising the
deployment has reason to suppose that officers may have to protect themselves or
others from a person who:
• Is in possession of, or has immediate access to, a firearm or other potentially lethal
weapon or
• Is otherwise so dangerous that the deployment of armed officers is considered to be
appropriate or
• As an operational contingency in a specific operation based on the threat assessment
or
• For the destruction of animals which are dangerous or are suffering unnecessarily.
Also the animal welfare act should be considered -
The considerations to which it is relevant to have regard when determining for the purposes of this section whether suffering is unnecessary include—
(a)whether the suffering could reasonably have been avoided or reduced;
(b)whether the conduct which caused the suffering was in compliance with any relevant enactment or any relevant provisions of a licence or code of practice issued under an enactment;
(c)whether the conduct which caused the suffering was for a legitimate purpose, such as—
(i)the purpose of benefiting the animal, or
(ii)the purpose of protecting a person, property or another animal;
(d)whether the suffering was proportionate to the purpose of the conduct concerned;
(e)whether the conduct concerned was in all the circumstances that of a reasonably competent and humane person.
Edited by Bigends on Thursday 20th June 17:37
I'd imagine that that shooting a cow cleanly and professionally would require pretty much the same tools that we use for shooting boar and deer and you won't generally be finding those tools in an armed response unit that is tailored very specifically to stopping people. You also need to know where to hit the animal for a clean kill which I doubt the average police officer is taught.
So, that covered and all other sane solutions covered off what do you think that left as the final option for the unfortunate police on the scene with the duty and responsibility to ultimately just stop the poor cow? And outside of any defensive bravado do you not suspect that the policeman feels awful for having to resort to doing what he did? And now the poor person has to go through all the hoops and stress of an inquiry and worry about their career prospects and potentially even their mortgage.
Imagine if the cops had shot this animal and what people would be saying......
DonkeyApple said:
Do you not suspect that different firearms and different ammunition are used for different tasks?
I'd imagine that that shooting a cow cleanly and professionally would require pretty much the same tools that we use for shooting boar and deer and you won't generally be finding those tools in an armed response unit that is tailored very specifically to stopping people. You also need to know where to hit the animal for a clean kill which I doubt the average police officer is taught.
You're talking out of your behind.I'd imagine that that shooting a cow cleanly and professionally would require pretty much the same tools that we use for shooting boar and deer and you won't generally be finding those tools in an armed response unit that is tailored very specifically to stopping people. You also need to know where to hit the animal for a clean kill which I doubt the average police officer is taught.
Greendubber said:
DonkeyApple said:
Bigends said:
DonkeyApple said:
Bigends said:
Incident ongoing for several hours - why werent firearms called out and the calf dealt with properly and humanely? - One question that needs answering
What kind of standard police firearm will ensure the clean kill of a cow? And how do you get the cow to stand still while saying 'you'll never take me alive, pig!' And why would we want such weapons being fired in a residential area and the risk that entails when the cow can just be hot with a vehicle without risking anyone?The weapons and ammunition that is designed to stop humans and which are only used in a built up area as an absolute last resort won't happily stop a cow, nor will the cow tend to be stationary etc.
To be honest, I wouldn't have thought the use of an armed response team would feature at all among any of the options.
This from Sussex/Surrey firearms policy
Criteria for Deployment of Armed Officers
5.1 The deployment of AFOs should only be authorised where the officer authorising the
deployment has reason to suppose that officers may have to protect themselves or
others from a person who:
• Is in possession of, or has immediate access to, a firearm or other potentially lethal
weapon or
• Is otherwise so dangerous that the deployment of armed officers is considered to be
appropriate or
• As an operational contingency in a specific operation based on the threat assessment
or
• For the destruction of animals which are dangerous or are suffering unnecessarily.
Also the animal welfare act should be considered -
The considerations to which it is relevant to have regard when determining for the purposes of this section whether suffering is unnecessary include—
(a)whether the suffering could reasonably have been avoided or reduced;
(b)whether the conduct which caused the suffering was in compliance with any relevant enactment or any relevant provisions of a licence or code of practice issued under an enactment;
(c)whether the conduct which caused the suffering was for a legitimate purpose, such as—
(i)the purpose of benefiting the animal, or
(ii)the purpose of protecting a person, property or another animal;
(d)whether the suffering was proportionate to the purpose of the conduct concerned;
(e)whether the conduct concerned was in all the circumstances that of a reasonably competent and humane person.
Edited by Bigends on Thursday 20th June 17:37
I'd imagine that that shooting a cow cleanly and professionally would require pretty much the same tools that we use for shooting boar and deer and you won't generally be finding those tools in an armed response unit that is tailored very specifically to stopping people. You also need to know where to hit the animal for a clean kill which I doubt the average police officer is taught.
So, that covered and all other sane solutions covered off what do you think that left as the final option for the unfortunate police on the scene with the duty and responsibility to ultimately just stop the poor cow? And outside of any defensive bravado do you not suspect that the policeman feels awful for having to resort to doing what he did? And now the poor person has to go through all the hoops and stress of an inquiry and worry about their career prospects and potentially even their mortgage.
Imagine if the cops had shot this animal and what people would be saying......
Evanivitch said:
DonkeyApple said:
Do you not suspect that different firearms and different ammunition are used for different tasks?
I'd imagine that that shooting a cow cleanly and professionally would require pretty much the same tools that we use for shooting boar and deer and you won't generally be finding those tools in an armed response unit that is tailored very specifically to stopping people. You also need to know where to hit the animal for a clean kill which I doubt the average police officer is taught.
You're talking out of your behind.I'd imagine that that shooting a cow cleanly and professionally would require pretty much the same tools that we use for shooting boar and deer and you won't generally be finding those tools in an armed response unit that is tailored very specifically to stopping people. You also need to know where to hit the animal for a clean kill which I doubt the average police officer is taught.
Evanivitch said:
DonkeyApple said:
Do you not suspect that different firearms and different ammunition are used for different tasks?
I'd imagine that that shooting a cow cleanly and professionally would require pretty much the same tools that we use for shooting boar and deer and you won't generally be finding those tools in an armed response unit that is tailored very specifically to stopping people. You also need to know where to hit the animal for a clean kill which I doubt the average police officer is taught.
You're talking out of your behind.I'd imagine that that shooting a cow cleanly and professionally would require pretty much the same tools that we use for shooting boar and deer and you won't generally be finding those tools in an armed response unit that is tailored very specifically to stopping people. You also need to know where to hit the animal for a clean kill which I doubt the average police officer is taught.
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