PSV/Coach driver hours rules
Discussion
My son is going on a school trip in a few weeks, end of year fun trips that the school arrange through a tour operator. Just had the finalised itinerary through and it's changed somewhat from what was originally stated when son chose which trip to go on. The trip is to Alton Towers and Thorpe Park, spread across 3 days with one day at each park. We've now been told that they'll have to leave Alton Towers at 2pm because of the driver's hours regulations. Which seems pathetic to only get half a day there, given the cost of the trip is nearly £500 per child. And also leave Thorpe Park at 4pm (2hrs before closing). If they need a second driver to keep within the rules then I think that's what they should be doing. But I'm a bit surprised that a single driver isn't able to fit within driving rules given the journeys are spread over three days?
I've tried to have a read of the driving times rules, but can't fully get my head around it, and why this itinerary is necessary:
Mon day time drive to Alton Towers - 9am start, 275 miles, estimated arrival at Alton Towers hotel 4pm.
Tues Depart Alton Towers - 2pm, 160 miles to hotel near Thorpe Park.
Weds 10am - approx 5 miles from hotel to Thorpe Park.
Weds 4pm - depart Thorpe Park to drive home, 225 miles, 4.5hrs estimated.
So that's about 14 hours driving spread across 3 days/60 hour window. Are the driving hours regulations really that tight?
I've tried to have a read of the driving times rules, but can't fully get my head around it, and why this itinerary is necessary:
Mon day time drive to Alton Towers - 9am start, 275 miles, estimated arrival at Alton Towers hotel 4pm.
Tues Depart Alton Towers - 2pm, 160 miles to hotel near Thorpe Park.
Weds 10am - approx 5 miles from hotel to Thorpe Park.
Weds 4pm - depart Thorpe Park to drive home, 225 miles, 4.5hrs estimated.
So that's about 14 hours driving spread across 3 days/60 hour window. Are the driving hours regulations really that tight?
You’ve quoted your schedule, but to know for sure, we’d need to know the driver’s schedule.
For example, you say the schedule starts at 9am on day one, but that’s almost certainly not when the driver’s day starts. Where is he coming from to pick you up? That driving and duty time has to be accounted for as well.
Once he’s dropped you off at about 4pm at the Alton Towers hotel, where is he going then? I’m betting he’s not staying in that expensive hotel, so he’ll be driving somewhere else to tramp for the night. And hence where is he coming from to pick you up at 2pm on day 2? And then where is he going after dropping you at Thorpe Park?
And there needs to be contingency for traffic delays. I’m assuming a coach tacho works the same way as an HGV tacho and it switches to “other work” when stationary in a traffic queue, but it’s the crawling along that hurts your driving time - the tacho records the time spent with the wheels turning regardless of speed; it doesn’t clock slowly when you’re moving slowly.
I can’t immediately see the problem, and I’m not sure if it’s driving time or duty time that’s the issue, but without knowing the driver’s timetable there are too many unknowns.
For example, you say the schedule starts at 9am on day one, but that’s almost certainly not when the driver’s day starts. Where is he coming from to pick you up? That driving and duty time has to be accounted for as well.
Once he’s dropped you off at about 4pm at the Alton Towers hotel, where is he going then? I’m betting he’s not staying in that expensive hotel, so he’ll be driving somewhere else to tramp for the night. And hence where is he coming from to pick you up at 2pm on day 2? And then where is he going after dropping you at Thorpe Park?
And there needs to be contingency for traffic delays. I’m assuming a coach tacho works the same way as an HGV tacho and it switches to “other work” when stationary in a traffic queue, but it’s the crawling along that hurts your driving time - the tacho records the time spent with the wheels turning regardless of speed; it doesn’t clock slowly when you’re moving slowly.
I can’t immediately see the problem, and I’m not sure if it’s driving time or duty time that’s the issue, but without knowing the driver’s timetable there are too many unknowns.
119 said:
They can drive 9 hours per day so does seem a bit odd.
Unless of course it is actual overall time they are more concerned about.
Yes, I'd seen the 9 hours per day bit, but then they're allowed to do 10 hours 2 days a week. And also daily rest of 11 hours in any 24hr period, which can be reduced to 9 hours a couple of times per week. And I can't see how the itinerary would infringe on those rules, even if they stayed at both parks til closing time?Unless of course it is actual overall time they are more concerned about.
I suspect it's just been badly organised, but want to be sure of the regs before I complain. School have just shrugged it off saying it's nothing to do with them, said they put it out to a coach tour operator to organise it all. The original itinerary said they'd be driving to Alton Towers Monday morning for the day there (presumably a very early start), and then going to Thorpe Park on the Tuesday, with Weds just the drive home. Which seemed a much better plan. No explanation of why they changed it, but if they'd told us the final itinerary at the point of booking I'd never have agreed for son to go on the trip.
LivLL said:
£500 each?
Yes, per child. Well the price to the coach/tour company is actually £450, but we were originally told this was inclusive of all meals. But now we've been told that it doesn't include lunches, so the kids will have to take extra cash to buy themselves lunch on all 3 days - Monday at motorway services, Tues and Weds within the theme parks. Teacher said £5 should cover lunch at Alton Towers! Now I've not been there myself in 20 years but I'm pretty sure you couldn't get lunch for £5 then, nevermind at current prices. So I'm expecting an extra £15 a day for lunch and drinks. the-norseman said:
As above the driver wont start driving at 9am, probably 7am, including walk around checks.
Without looking do they have to do a 45 min break after 4.5 hours like HGV?
Yes, I realised after I posted that the driver will be doing more than just the actual journeys with the kids on. Still not sure it's enough to impede their hours though? I believe they do have to have 45 minute break for every 4.5hrs driving. Which should be fine as I expect there will be 45 minutes parked up waiting for the kids to board initially at the school meet, and they'll be stopping for lunch on the way. Pretty sure all the passengers will want to stretch their legs after 4.5 hours seated too. Without looking do they have to do a 45 min break after 4.5 hours like HGV?
mjb1 said:
119 said:
They can drive 9 hours per day so does seem a bit odd.
Unless of course it is actual overall time they are more concerned about.
Yes, I'd seen the 9 hours per day bit, but then they're allowed to do 10 hours 2 days a week. And also daily rest of 11 hours in any 24hr period, which can be reduced to 9 hours a couple of times per week. And I can't see how the itinerary would infringe on those rules, even if they stayed at both parks til closing time?Unless of course it is actual overall time they are more concerned about.
Don't forget he is human and may not feel the need/want to do that just because you want a bit more time at a theme park.
E-bmw said:
You seem to be very quick to presume here that the driver wants to work what is a very long & stressful day and is allowed to by his company.
Don't forget he is human and may not feel the need/want to do that just because you want a bit more time at a theme park.
No, I'm not blaming the driver, pretty sure he's not drawn up the itinerary himself either. All I know is that I feel we've paid top dollar for a trip and expected them to organise it for the best customer experience. Half a day at Alton Towers is frankly a waste of a trip. If that means they need to go back to the originally published itinerary or take a second driver, then that's what they should be doing, there should be plenty of profit margin for it. They've changed it from what was advertised to something that doesn't really work, and the only reason given so far has been the driver's hours. I'm trying to ascertain whether that's the real reason, so that I can formulate my complaint (to the tour company, not the coach driver) factually. Don't forget he is human and may not feel the need/want to do that just because you want a bit more time at a theme park.
mjb1 said:
45 minutes parked up waiting for the kids to board initially at the school meet
That wouldn’t count as a break, strictly speaking.While the kids are boarding, the driver bears responsibility for their safety. So he’s not at leisure, and therefore not on a break. And before they board, he would also be responsible for the vehicle and would have to be present and ready to start boarding whenever the teachers have got the kids ready - therefore not free to bugger off for a fag and a cuppa.
“Break” means the driver is free to do as he pleases. It doesn’t automatically follow that that he’s on break whenever the coach is parked up.
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Monday 1st July 15:25
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
That wouldn’t count as a break, strictly speaking.
While the kids are boarding, the driver bears responsibility for their safety. So he’s not at leisure, and therefore not on a break. And before they board, he would also be responsible for the vehicle and would have to be present and ready to start boarding whenever the teachers have got the kids ready - therefore not free to bugger off for a fag and a cuppa.
“Break” means the driver is free to do as he pleases. It doesn’t automatically follow that that he’s on break whenever the coach is parked up.
Yeh that will go down as other workWhile the kids are boarding, the driver bears responsibility for their safety. So he’s not at leisure, and therefore not on a break. And before they board, he would also be responsible for the vehicle and would have to be present and ready to start boarding whenever the teachers have got the kids ready - therefore not free to bugger off for a fag and a cuppa.
“Break” means the driver is free to do as he pleases. It doesn’t automatically follow that that he’s on break whenever the coach is parked up.
Edited by Dr Mike Oxgreen on Monday 1st July 15:25
Dr Mike Oxgreen said:
You’ve quoted your schedule, but to know for sure, we’d need to know the driver’s schedule.
For example, you say the schedule starts at 9am on day one, but that’s almost certainly not when the driver’s day starts. Where is he coming from to pick you up? That driving and duty time has to be accounted for as well.
Once he’s dropped you off at about 4pm at the Alton Towers hotel, where is he going then? I’m betting he’s not staying in that expensive hotel, so he’ll be driving somewhere else to tramp for the night. And hence where is he coming from to pick you up at 2pm on day 2? And then where is he going after dropping you at Thorpe Park?
And there needs to be contingency for traffic delays. I’m assuming a coach tacho works the same way as an HGV tacho and it switches to “other work” when stationary in a traffic queue, but it’s the crawling along that hurts your driving time - the tacho records the time spent with the wheels turning regardless of speed; it doesn’t clock slowly when you’re moving slowly.
I can’t immediately see the problem, and I’m not sure if it’s driving time or duty time that’s the issue, but without knowing the driver’s timetable there are too many unknowns.
Yes a coach tacho switches to other work when stationaryFor example, you say the schedule starts at 9am on day one, but that’s almost certainly not when the driver’s day starts. Where is he coming from to pick you up? That driving and duty time has to be accounted for as well.
Once he’s dropped you off at about 4pm at the Alton Towers hotel, where is he going then? I’m betting he’s not staying in that expensive hotel, so he’ll be driving somewhere else to tramp for the night. And hence where is he coming from to pick you up at 2pm on day 2? And then where is he going after dropping you at Thorpe Park?
And there needs to be contingency for traffic delays. I’m assuming a coach tacho works the same way as an HGV tacho and it switches to “other work” when stationary in a traffic queue, but it’s the crawling along that hurts your driving time - the tacho records the time spent with the wheels turning regardless of speed; it doesn’t clock slowly when you’re moving slowly.
I can’t immediately see the problem, and I’m not sure if it’s driving time or duty time that’s the issue, but without knowing the driver’s timetable there are too many unknowns.
Don't forget the coach driver will likely be working full time so you would need to know his driving pattern for 21 days to see what he could do on "your" trip.
He/she may need to fuel up whilst the kids are at Alton Park. It all adds to his driving time.
They could of course get a second driver, but someone would have have to pay for it. But you already think £500 is to much.
I for one would feel a lot happier, if I felt my child's coach driver wasn't pushing his driving hours just so my kid could have a couple of hours extra at an amusement park
He/she may need to fuel up whilst the kids are at Alton Park. It all adds to his driving time.
They could of course get a second driver, but someone would have have to pay for it. But you already think £500 is to much.
I for one would feel a lot happier, if I felt my child's coach driver wasn't pushing his driving hours just so my kid could have a couple of hours extra at an amusement park
Edited by Drumroll on Monday 1st July 16:41
I think you're expecting a lot of the driver, particularly when you don't appear to understand much about the legalities that affect him (some of which has now since been explained for you).
To fully understand the situation you might need more information surrounding what else the driver is expected to do (including days before and after this job), when his day actually starts and finishes, actual timings throughout etc etc.
It's quite likely that he may be required to take a legal break over what you expect and if it's a small coach operator he might even be doing a small extra job before/after your trip.
To fully understand the situation you might need more information surrounding what else the driver is expected to do (including days before and after this job), when his day actually starts and finishes, actual timings throughout etc etc.
It's quite likely that he may be required to take a legal break over what you expect and if it's a small coach operator he might even be doing a small extra job before/after your trip.
t VFM, 2 days at one theme park would seem like a better idea. Sitting on a bus for no more than the absolute minimum time please. Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff