EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
There certainly are places where someone who can "only" afford a 35k car can't also afford a house with a driveway, but for vast areas of the country that isn't the case. I don't think EVs have generally depreciated down to the level where affordability of off road parking is a major problem, we're still largely in the realm of the > 50% of the population who have it.
I'm at my partner's place in Surrey suburbia at the moment, the whole street (and those around it) has driveways, and there are plenty of sub-35k cars parked on them.
I'm at my partner's place in Surrey suburbia at the moment, the whole street (and those around it) has driveways, and there are plenty of sub-35k cars parked on them.
I don't think you can look at prices for the same across new and used cars to asses what is "affordable".
It's all about "the monthlies", and the OEMs and big dealer groups can provide those headline PCP deals, with all the marketing and eye-catching discounts (whether real or otherwise) sitting behind them.
I know people finance used cars too, but - surely not the same extent. I think 35 grand for a used motor is very very expensive - I've never spent that much on a used family car before (and I've got a driveway, don't you know!).
Give it a couple of years and we'll be sub 10 grand for Model 3s, then they become much more attractive. I'd recommend one to my sister straight away (has had various generally terrible used cars in the 5-8k bracket); - and even without an easy means to charge at home, she'd only need to charge it once every couple of weeks at the supermarket to meet normal small town school run and light commute needs.
It's all about "the monthlies", and the OEMs and big dealer groups can provide those headline PCP deals, with all the marketing and eye-catching discounts (whether real or otherwise) sitting behind them.
I know people finance used cars too, but - surely not the same extent. I think 35 grand for a used motor is very very expensive - I've never spent that much on a used family car before (and I've got a driveway, don't you know!).
Give it a couple of years and we'll be sub 10 grand for Model 3s, then they become much more attractive. I'd recommend one to my sister straight away (has had various generally terrible used cars in the 5-8k bracket); - and even without an easy means to charge at home, she'd only need to charge it once every couple of weeks at the supermarket to meet normal small town school run and light commute needs.
30 40 grand for a used car? It all depends, quite like an Arnage Mulliner in that glorious darkish peacock blue with a light beige interior, for 42k would be interesting. Though the whitewall tyres would have to go, plus reserve extra budget for another 40k worth of brave points.
It's all relative.
It's all relative.
cidered77 said:
I think 35 grand for a used motor is very very expensive - I've never spent that much on a used family car before (and I've got a driveway, don't you know!).
35k is a crazy amount for people to think that is "normal".No way could I justify spending 35k on a dull everyday EV, total madness.
I've also got a driveway
Glosphil said:
plfrench said:
Yes, but remember, neither of you actually want one. It says so in the title.
No it doesn't. The title referred to dealers not wanting to take EVs in part exchange. Like all EV threads this one has gone way off the original topic into the usual EVs are rubbish v oh no they're not argument. 
If labour win next week as we are lead to believe they will, bringing forward the ban of ICE cars to 2030 might mean the dip in EV desirability could be temporary perhaps?
There are a few decent EV options in the used market for £20-25k at the moment and if you offset the fuel saving, its still going to be better off financially over the next 4 years of ownership for those doing 10k miles a year, even if the depreciation is slightly more than an ICE car.
There are a few decent EV options in the used market for £20-25k at the moment and if you offset the fuel saving, its still going to be better off financially over the next 4 years of ownership for those doing 10k miles a year, even if the depreciation is slightly more than an ICE car.
cidered77 said:
what an absolutely seminal piece of design that I3 was..... now getting towards 12 years old.
Also rather stark how comparatively little progress we've made. That car with the range extender was an ideal second car for millions of drivers, and if you lived in a city was likely all you need. But all that time later and EVs even today struggling to establish themselves as a risk free choice for single car households.
They gambled on low mass and efficiency together with a lower capacity lighter battery, and that's still probably the way things need to move longer term....
No argument from me on that.Also rather stark how comparatively little progress we've made. That car with the range extender was an ideal second car for millions of drivers, and if you lived in a city was likely all you need. But all that time later and EVs even today struggling to establish themselves as a risk free choice for single car households.
They gambled on low mass and efficiency together with a lower capacity lighter battery, and that's still probably the way things need to move longer term....
There is a however a fairly large technology and production capacity gap to make carbon composite bodies both sustainable and mass- produced.
There are a quarter of a million i3 cars globally and it took a decade to produce them all.
I'm not 100% sure but I believe the body was entirely sourced from fossil fuels.
Sustainable fibres and resins are an emerging technology, so there's hope yet, but it's not a mass-producible solution for tens of millions or even millions of cars each year.
Exactly the same issue as the thick-walled carbon fibre tanks in hydrogen cars, which use a similar mass of material as the i3 body.
GT9 said:
No argument from me on that.
There is a however a fairly large technology and production capacity gap to make carbon composite bodies both sustainable and mass- produced.
There are a quarter of a million i3 cars globally and it took a decade to produce them all.
I'm not 100% sure but I believe the body was entirely sourced from fossil fuels.
Sustainable fibres and resins are an emerging technology, so there's hope yet, but it's not a mass-producible solution for tens of millions or even millions of cars each year.
Exactly the same issue as the thick-walled carbon fibre tanks in hydrogen cars, which use a similar mass of material as the i3 body.
guess whilst lightweight carbon composites may not ever be an economical way to make mass market cars - we have still learned other stuff in that past 12 years you'd hope? Lightweight aluminium construction, low CD, ramp back the performance to avoid the knock on effects on beefier suspension and huge tyres.... 60 kwh becomes the new 80 kwhs for batteries even for larger cars... has to be a better way to go than the current beheamoths at the upper end of the EV market, am sure. The crazy speed thing is fun once or twice - butnow nearly two weeks in i think it was only the first day of new EV ownership when i last "booted it"; it's just a party trick. There is a however a fairly large technology and production capacity gap to make carbon composite bodies both sustainable and mass- produced.
There are a quarter of a million i3 cars globally and it took a decade to produce them all.
I'm not 100% sure but I believe the body was entirely sourced from fossil fuels.
Sustainable fibres and resins are an emerging technology, so there's hope yet, but it's not a mass-producible solution for tens of millions or even millions of cars each year.
Exactly the same issue as the thick-walled carbon fibre tanks in hydrogen cars, which use a similar mass of material as the i3 body.
BMW had it so right back then, but now sells a flagship 2.5 ton i5 that struggles to do more than 3 miles per KWh, so has a range that's just 50 miles or so short of what i reckon its natural market would look for.
Oilchange said:
Bare in mind a carbon chassis won't corrode and that's anathema to a car maker. They want them to crumble to dust or we won't buy more of their stuff
The issue is more what to do with it at the end of the car's life.Chop it up and use it somehow, as a filler of sorts?
It's not like a battery, where the constituent minerals and elements can be retrieved and returned to their original integrity.
Also the resin matrix ages and absorbs moisture over time, so at some point there is likely to be fatigue at highly stressed locations in the structure.
Maybe thats avoidable for car bodies but it definitely isn't for pressure vessels.
cptsideways said:
Destination chargers, I've just spent two weeks staying at different premier Inns for work, only one had ev chargers on site! Even just freshly built ones. Utterly bonkers.
There is one town I go to at least once a week, with a large leisure complex which has 5 activities (including cinema), plus 3 fast-food-or-coffee outlets, and hundreds of parking spaces across several car parks .... and not 1 charger!GT9 said:
Oilchange said:
Bare in mind a carbon chassis won't corrode and that's anathema to a car maker. They want them to crumble to dust or we won't buy more of their stuff
The issue is more what to do with it at the end of the car's life.Chop it up and use it somehow, as a filler of sorts?
It's not like a battery, where the constituent minerals and elements can be retrieved and returned to their original integrity.
Also the resin matrix ages and absorbs moisture over time, so at some point there is likely to be fatigue at highly stressed locations in the structure.
Maybe thats avoidable for car bodies but it definitely isn't for pressure vessels.
M4cruiser said:
There is one town I go to at least once a week, with a large leisure complex which has 5 activities (including cinema), plus 3 fast-food-or-coffee outlets, and hundreds of parking spaces across several car parks .... and not 1 charger!
shows that these things need legislation. place we used to stay at said that the management committee didn't want to install chargers as less than 10% of them drove an EV. mental shortsightedness. I was at my local Aldi and they had half a dozen EV bays all empty, quite wide too. But the disabled parking slots were standard width! Cock up there I think.
Destination chargers round here had a short free charging period initially in 2021 (Tesco etc), but not any more. So nobody will use them unless they can't charge at home. Last week I used a charger in king's Lynn. All 6 were not being used, but 2 slots were occupied by these c**kwombles who think being security means they can park wherever hey want.... No they weren't EVs.
Destination chargers round here had a short free charging period initially in 2021 (Tesco etc), but not any more. So nobody will use them unless they can't charge at home.
Last week I used a charger in king's Lynn. All 6 were not being used, but 2 slots were occupied by these c**kwombles who think being security means they can park wherever hey want.... No they weren't EVs.M4cruiser said:
Who said carbon doesn't degrade, go have a look near the Titanic.
If you are referring to the Titan implosion then yes, carbon composite pressure vessels, particular ones that are external pressurised have got a myriad of failure modes that need to be considered.For car bodies, where corrosion is more relevant, in theory, the i3 body won't corrode and could be re-used to build a new i3 in say 20 years time to replace the old one.
A bit like refitting aircraft airframes with newer engines, electrics, interiors, componentry, etc.
What isn't really doable is to recycle the body to build a new one to a different design, with different proportions.
That would require newly made fibres and resin, both from fossil fuel.
Arguably, that's a better way to use fossil fuel rather than burning it, however it still leaves the challenge that carbon composites are a low-volume labour-intensive material to produce with a high QA overhead.
The present day global production capacity of carbon fibre is around 100k metric tons, steel on the other hand is around 25,000 times higher than that...
Even if the entire world's production capacity for carbon fibre was solely dedicated to producing car bodies, and BMW or anyone else could somehow build a production line and recruit sufficient people to support that, it still wouldn't exceed 1 million cars per year.
Global car production is heading in the direction of 100 million cars per year.
We are going to be doing our first EV journey this weekend where we have to use a Public Charger. Ours is doing 230 miles at the moment to a full charge and its a 120 mile each way journey so a charge is needed en route somewhere.
Currently looking at stopping at Cobham services as seems to be a lot of chargers, likely just do a top up as we probably only need another 40 miles or so to get us there and back.
This is the downside to EV ownership, you have to plan your longer journeys better. I have Cobham as a primary and have searched out a couple more en route as a backup.
To be fair, we have done 1700 miles in the EV in six weeks of ownership and this is the first time we need to use a public charger so not bad going.
Currently looking at stopping at Cobham services as seems to be a lot of chargers, likely just do a top up as we probably only need another 40 miles or so to get us there and back.
This is the downside to EV ownership, you have to plan your longer journeys better. I have Cobham as a primary and have searched out a couple more en route as a backup.
To be fair, we have done 1700 miles in the EV in six weeks of ownership and this is the first time we need to use a public charger so not bad going.
Wagonwheel555 said:
We are going to be doing our first EV journey this weekend where we have to use a Public Charger. Ours is doing 230 miles at the moment to a full charge and its a 120 mile each way journey so a charge is needed en route somewhere.
Currently looking at stopping at Cobham services as seems to be a lot of chargers, likely just do a top up as we probably only need another 40 miles or so to get us there and back.
This is the downside to EV ownership, you have to plan your longer journeys better. I have Cobham as a primary and have searched out a couple more en route as a backup.
To be fair, we have done 1700 miles in the EV in six weeks of ownership and this is the first time we need to use a public charger so not bad going.
Why not do a charge at your destination? Why charge en-route?Currently looking at stopping at Cobham services as seems to be a lot of chargers, likely just do a top up as we probably only need another 40 miles or so to get us there and back.
This is the downside to EV ownership, you have to plan your longer journeys better. I have Cobham as a primary and have searched out a couple more en route as a backup.
To be fair, we have done 1700 miles in the EV in six weeks of ownership and this is the first time we need to use a public charger so not bad going.
Gassing Station | Car Buying | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff