Wimbledon school crash deaths - medical episodes & insurance
Discussion
TwigtheWonderkid said:
So, you're stationary at a pedestrian crossing, with 5 school kids crossing. A lorry smashes into you at speed, pushing you into the kids, injuring/killing one or more of them. The lorry drives off, before anyone can get a reg number. Now you are the driver who's car has smashed into some kids and done awful damage. Are you happy to have a million pound plus claim on your insurance, and no claims bonus lost? I wouldn't be. Of course what happened to the kids was awful, but it wasn't my fault. I was sitting at the crossing minding my own business, when suddenly, bang, I've run over 5 kids. Much the same as this woman.
As I said above, sometimes dreadful things happen and either no one is to blame, or no one knows the details of the person that is to blame.
I see the parallel you're drawing: Why should an innocent driver have a claim on their record that they weren't responsible for?As I said above, sometimes dreadful things happen and either no one is to blame, or no one knows the details of the person that is to blame.
Edited by TwigtheWonderkid on Thursday 27th June 21:18
My suggestion is that in specific scenarios the driver's insurance pays, but without the need for the driver to be held liable.
In cases where a car is sold, the seller’s insurance isn't cancelled and the uninsured buyer causes damage resulting in the innocent seller's insurer paying out, is that added to the seller’s claim history?
I’ll have to have a read into this, as typically you have to have two unprompted seizures to receive a diagnosis of epilepsy.
Just to add there are many types of seizure - I had one last week and it wouldn’t have resulted in an accident if I had been at the wheel. It’s not all tonic clinic events as depicted in films or on TV.
Just to add there are many types of seizure - I had one last week and it wouldn’t have resulted in an accident if I had been at the wheel. It’s not all tonic clinic events as depicted in films or on TV.
surveyor said:
agtlaw said:
Epilepsy is said to be a disease of the mind. It is therefore, insane automatism.
The burden of proving that defence is on the defendant. Standard of proof is the civil standard. I.e. on the balance of probabilities.
If the defence is proven then that would lead to a so-called ‘special verdict’ of not guilty by reason of insanity.
This is unfortunate terminology in the context of epilepsy. The Law Commission has proposed reform.
I have an automatism case pending, though non-insane automatism, which differs from insane automatism in that the prosecution is required to disprove the defence - the burden of proof on the defendant is evidential only.
It’s only a burden if prosecuted presumably albeit I guess this is what the CPS would consider when making their decision…The burden of proving that defence is on the defendant. Standard of proof is the civil standard. I.e. on the balance of probabilities.
If the defence is proven then that would lead to a so-called ‘special verdict’ of not guilty by reason of insanity.
This is unfortunate terminology in the context of epilepsy. The Law Commission has proposed reform.
I have an automatism case pending, though non-insane automatism, which differs from insane automatism in that the prosecution is required to disprove the defence - the burden of proof on the defendant is evidential only.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bjpsych-ad...
Edited by jdw100 on Friday 28th June 02:24
jdw100 said:
I’ll have to have a read into this, as typically you have to have two unprompted seizures to receive a diagnosis of epilepsy.
Just to add there are many types of seizure - I had one last week and it wouldn’t have resulted in an accident if I had been at the wheel. It’s not all tonic clinic events as depicted in films or on TV.
Has she been diagnosed with epilepsy or just that she had a an seizure with unknown origin.Just to add there are many types of seizure - I had one last week and it wouldn’t have resulted in an accident if I had been at the wheel. It’s not all tonic clinic events as depicted in films or on TV.
The Daily Mail has decided to picture her this morning for some perverse reason.....
jeremyh1 said:
Same old argument again I live in rural Mid Devon with floods , ruts ,pot holes ,more mud and sheep shaggers. Most of us just drive normal cars with no trouble so why the Feck do you need a 4X4 in London .Does me ead in!
At the risk of getting somewhat off topic here... I don't live anywhere near the ghastly horror that is London but every time I visit I do I'm astounded by the sheer number of horrific speed bumps there. Not to mention the awful state of the roads. I hate SUV's (and autos) with a passion but I would 100% be considering one if I had to suffer living there. VSKeith said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
So, you're stationary at a pedestrian crossing, with 5 school kids crossing. A lorry smashes into you at speed, pushing you into the kids, injuring/killing one or more of them. The lorry drives off, before anyone can get a reg number. Now you are the driver who's car has smashed into some kids and done awful damage. Are you happy to have a million pound plus claim on your insurance, and no claims bonus lost? I wouldn't be. Of course what happened to the kids was awful, but it wasn't my fault. I was sitting at the crossing minding my own business, when suddenly, bang, I've run over 5 kids. Much the same as this woman.
As I said above, sometimes dreadful things happen and either no one is to blame, or no one knows the details of the person that is to blame.
I see the parallel you're drawing: Why should an innocent driver have a claim on their record that they weren't responsible for?As I said above, sometimes dreadful things happen and either no one is to blame, or no one knows the details of the person that is to blame.
Edited by TwigtheWonderkid on Thursday 27th June 21:18
My suggestion is that in specific scenarios the driver's insurance pays, but without the need for the driver to be held liable.
In cases where a car is sold, the seller’s insurance isn't cancelled and the uninsured buyer causes damage resulting in the innocent seller's insurer paying out, is that added to the seller’s claim history?
That's a completely different scenario. Here, we are talking about no negligence at all.
Every day people are seriously injured of killed thru no fault of anyone. It's just an accident. Or they lose limbs thru illness or whatever. Kids get meningitis and suffer lifechanging injuries. No one compensates them.
pavarotti1980 said:
jdw100 said:
I’ll have to have a read into this, as typically you have to have two unprompted seizures to receive a diagnosis of epilepsy.
Just to add there are many types of seizure - I had one last week and it wouldn’t have resulted in an accident if I had been at the wheel. It’s not all tonic clinic events as depicted in films or on TV.
Has she been diagnosed with epilepsy or just that she had a an seizure with unknown origin.Just to add there are many types of seizure - I had one last week and it wouldn’t have resulted in an accident if I had been at the wheel. It’s not all tonic clinic events as depicted in films or on TV.
The Daily Mail has decided to picture her this morning for some perverse reason.....
agtlaw said:
jdw100 said:
Your point?Especially having epilepsy myself, I didn’t know i could be classed as being ‘insane’ in a certain circumstance.
pavarotti1980 said:
jdw100 said:
Its being reported as epilepsy.
It is being reported as an epileptic seizure. Nowhere does it say she has been diagnosed with epilepsyYou have to have two seizures to be considered epileptic.
Eyersey1234 said:
I can understand the parents are grieving though this was a tragic accident. Any one of us could be taken ill.at the wheel and kill someone with no prior warning
But some people make decisions which alter the odds.You decide whether to drive a tank or not.
There are links between certain recreational drugs popular in London and epilectic seizures.
Back in the old days, 'Gin and Jaguars' was a stereotype of middle class females....
I won’t give the details as they are fairly easy to identify. But a close friend of mine lost their child and has been left with their body, brain and life destroyed through a similar event.
I think a problem we have in this country is that you can’t get life insurance for children. I’m led to believe this is not the case in some of Europe.
Now, there will be people who think that’s a ridiculous concept. But in a case like this or similar, families are left destroyed by losing a child and unfortunately money does make a difference.
The first thing that can happen is either mentally or physically you are unable to work and there is little financial help. The statistics for families breaking up after a child bereavement are more common than not.
Another family I know lost their child due to a heart condition which came out of nowhere and the child tragically passed after 3 months in hospital.
Both of the families I know have been hit with appalling tragedy that hopefully non of us ever will. But what would have made life easier is if they hadn’t also had to worry about work, paying the mortgage or how they were going to survive and look after other kids. Not to mention in one case how they were ever going to live a normal life again.
I’m not talking about compensation or betterment, I’m talking about a safety net that means a week after your child has died you’re not worrying about that 9am meeting, losing your job or not being able to pay your mortgage. Maybe cap it I don’t know £100k. I know there would be worry people would murder children. I don’t know. Currently tragic accidents like this destroy families, there should be some way of protecting yourself and your family. Maybe it could even be through the NI system and everyone pays an extra couple of £s a year.
I’m sure there are hundreds of reasons it’s a bad idea, but these accidents involving children are just awful
I think a problem we have in this country is that you can’t get life insurance for children. I’m led to believe this is not the case in some of Europe.
Now, there will be people who think that’s a ridiculous concept. But in a case like this or similar, families are left destroyed by losing a child and unfortunately money does make a difference.
The first thing that can happen is either mentally or physically you are unable to work and there is little financial help. The statistics for families breaking up after a child bereavement are more common than not.
Another family I know lost their child due to a heart condition which came out of nowhere and the child tragically passed after 3 months in hospital.
Both of the families I know have been hit with appalling tragedy that hopefully non of us ever will. But what would have made life easier is if they hadn’t also had to worry about work, paying the mortgage or how they were going to survive and look after other kids. Not to mention in one case how they were ever going to live a normal life again.
I’m not talking about compensation or betterment, I’m talking about a safety net that means a week after your child has died you’re not worrying about that 9am meeting, losing your job or not being able to pay your mortgage. Maybe cap it I don’t know £100k. I know there would be worry people would murder children. I don’t know. Currently tragic accidents like this destroy families, there should be some way of protecting yourself and your family. Maybe it could even be through the NI system and everyone pays an extra couple of £s a year.
I’m sure there are hundreds of reasons it’s a bad idea, but these accidents involving children are just awful
jdw100 said:
You can have a seizure without it being epilepsy but you can't have an epileptic seizure without being epileptic.
You have to have two seizures to be considered epileptic.
How do you know she hasn't had another one since the accident? You have to have two seizures to be considered epileptic.
In view of the seriousness this accident how do you know additional tests were not carried out, that are not normally done?
jdw100 said:
You can have a seizure without it being epilepsy but you can't have an epileptic seizure without being epileptic.
You have to have two seizures to be considered epileptic.
Its used to generically to describe a seizure where the origin is the brain as opposed to fibrile convulsions or something endocrinological such as hypoglycaemia. They are then described in more granular detailYou have to have two seizures to be considered epileptic.
Epileptic seizure (finding)
SCTID: 313307000
313307000 | Epileptic seizure (finding) |
Epileptic seizure
Epileptic seizure (finding)
Epileptic convulsion
A transient occurrence of signs and/or symptoms due to abnormal excessive or synchronous neuronal activity in the brain, regardless of whether focal, generalized, or unknown onset, whether aware or impaired awareness, and whether motor or nonmotor.
https://termbrowser.nhs.uk/?perspective=full&c...
Edited by pavarotti1980 on Friday 28th June 16:28
Flumpo said:
I won’t give the details as they are fairly easy to identify. But a close friend of mine lost their child and has been left with their body, brain and life destroyed through a similar event.
I think a problem we have in this country is that you can’t get life insurance for children. I’m led to believe this is not the case in some of Europe.
Now, there will be people who think that’s a ridiculous concept. But in a case like this or similar, families are left destroyed by losing a child and unfortunately money does make a difference.
The first thing that can happen is either mentally or physically you are unable to work and there is little financial help. The statistics for families breaking up after a child bereavement are more common than not.
Another family I know lost their child due to a heart condition which came out of nowhere and the child tragically passed after 3 months in hospital.
Both of the families I know have been hit with appalling tragedy that hopefully non of us ever will. But what would have made life easier is if they hadn’t also had to worry about work, paying the mortgage or how they were going to survive and look after other kids. Not to mention in one case how they were ever going to live a normal life again.
I’m not talking about compensation or betterment, I’m talking about a safety net that means a week after your child has died you’re not worrying about that 9am meeting, losing your job or not being able to pay your mortgage. Maybe cap it I don’t know £100k. I know there would be worry people would murder children. I don’t know. Currently tragic accidents like this destroy families, there should be some way of protecting yourself and your family. Maybe it could even be through the NI system and everyone pays an extra couple of £s a year.
I’m sure there are hundreds of reasons it’s a bad idea, but these accidents involving children are just awful
Good points but re your figure of £100K, do you realise that even if the driver was to blame for the accident and her insurers were accepting full liability, they wouldn't be getting anything like £100K? I think a problem we have in this country is that you can’t get life insurance for children. I’m led to believe this is not the case in some of Europe.
Now, there will be people who think that’s a ridiculous concept. But in a case like this or similar, families are left destroyed by losing a child and unfortunately money does make a difference.
The first thing that can happen is either mentally or physically you are unable to work and there is little financial help. The statistics for families breaking up after a child bereavement are more common than not.
Another family I know lost their child due to a heart condition which came out of nowhere and the child tragically passed after 3 months in hospital.
Both of the families I know have been hit with appalling tragedy that hopefully non of us ever will. But what would have made life easier is if they hadn’t also had to worry about work, paying the mortgage or how they were going to survive and look after other kids. Not to mention in one case how they were ever going to live a normal life again.
I’m not talking about compensation or betterment, I’m talking about a safety net that means a week after your child has died you’re not worrying about that 9am meeting, losing your job or not being able to pay your mortgage. Maybe cap it I don’t know £100k. I know there would be worry people would murder children. I don’t know. Currently tragic accidents like this destroy families, there should be some way of protecting yourself and your family. Maybe it could even be through the NI system and everyone pays an extra couple of £s a year.
I’m sure there are hundreds of reasons it’s a bad idea, but these accidents involving children are just awful
Claims for death are settled on a scale relating to financial impact. A few years ago, I helped a family I know make an MIB claim after their (adult) daughter was hit and killed by an uninsured motorist. The daughter was early 40s, single, no kids, and no financial dependents. She had a low paid job. She was a bit of a free spirit, work for a year or so, go travelling for months, work a bit on route, eventually come home, get another low paid job.
The basic MIB payment for an adult with no financial dependents was set at £11K. It could be even less for a child, I don't know. Had the woman been to blame, I suspect payments for the death of a child wouldn't be any more than that, and maybe less. Now serious /life changing injury for a child on the other hand, the sky's the limit.
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Flumpo said:
I won’t give the details as they are fairly easy to identify. But a close friend of mine lost their child and has been left with their body, brain and life destroyed through a similar event.
I think a problem we have in this country is that you can’t get life insurance for children. I’m led to believe this is not the case in some of Europe.
Now, there will be people who think that’s a ridiculous concept. But in a case like this or similar, families are left destroyed by losing a child and unfortunately money does make a difference.
The first thing that can happen is either mentally or physically you are unable to work and there is little financial help. The statistics for families breaking up after a child bereavement are more common than not.
Another family I know lost their child due to a heart condition which came out of nowhere and the child tragically passed after 3 months in hospital.
Both of the families I know have been hit with appalling tragedy that hopefully non of us ever will. But what would have made life easier is if they hadn’t also had to worry about work, paying the mortgage or how they were going to survive and look after other kids. Not to mention in one case how they were ever going to live a normal life again.
I’m not talking about compensation or betterment, I’m talking about a safety net that means a week after your child has died you’re not worrying about that 9am meeting, losing your job or not being able to pay your mortgage. Maybe cap it I don’t know £100k. I know there would be worry people would murder children. I don’t know. Currently tragic accidents like this destroy families, there should be some way of protecting yourself and your family. Maybe it could even be through the NI system and everyone pays an extra couple of £s a year.
I’m sure there are hundreds of reasons it’s a bad idea, but these accidents involving children are just awful
Good points but re your figure of £100K, do you realise that even if the driver was to blame for the accident and her insurers were accepting full liability, they wouldn't be getting anything like £100K? I think a problem we have in this country is that you can’t get life insurance for children. I’m led to believe this is not the case in some of Europe.
Now, there will be people who think that’s a ridiculous concept. But in a case like this or similar, families are left destroyed by losing a child and unfortunately money does make a difference.
The first thing that can happen is either mentally or physically you are unable to work and there is little financial help. The statistics for families breaking up after a child bereavement are more common than not.
Another family I know lost their child due to a heart condition which came out of nowhere and the child tragically passed after 3 months in hospital.
Both of the families I know have been hit with appalling tragedy that hopefully non of us ever will. But what would have made life easier is if they hadn’t also had to worry about work, paying the mortgage or how they were going to survive and look after other kids. Not to mention in one case how they were ever going to live a normal life again.
I’m not talking about compensation or betterment, I’m talking about a safety net that means a week after your child has died you’re not worrying about that 9am meeting, losing your job or not being able to pay your mortgage. Maybe cap it I don’t know £100k. I know there would be worry people would murder children. I don’t know. Currently tragic accidents like this destroy families, there should be some way of protecting yourself and your family. Maybe it could even be through the NI system and everyone pays an extra couple of £s a year.
I’m sure there are hundreds of reasons it’s a bad idea, but these accidents involving children are just awful
Claims for death are settled on a scale relating to financial impact. A few years ago, I helped a family I know make an MIB claim after their (adult) daughter was hit and killed by an uninsured motorist. The daughter was early 40s, single, no kids, and no financial dependents. She had a low paid job. She was a bit of a free spirit, work for a year or so, go travelling for months, work a bit on route, eventually come home, get another low paid job.
The basic MIB payment for an adult with no financial dependents was set at £11K. It could be even less for a child, I don't know. Had the woman been to blame, I suspect payments for the death of a child wouldn't be any more than that, and maybe less. Now serious /life changing injury for a child on the other hand, the sky's the limit.
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