EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
740EVTORQUES said:
Just had a power cut in Surrey, 1st time in years.
Having 10kWh of fully charged batteries in the attic plus another 50kWh in the car with a V2L adaptor was nice.
Although it didn’t go on for long I symbolically made a cup of tea with a kettle plugged into the EV6 GT
I love the idea of being able to do that, or even to be able to run our towable plastic box when off grid.Having 10kWh of fully charged batteries in the attic plus another 50kWh in the car with a V2L adaptor was nice.
Although it didn’t go on for long I symbolically made a cup of tea with a kettle plugged into the EV6 GT
confused_buyer said:
DonkeyApple said:
To all intents and purpose those old Leafs are luxury mobility scooters. A means to trundle to the corner shop or bookmakers without the social embarrassment of the pavement EV.
I've been shedding an old LEAF for the last few months. I might do a write up on it. It's actually an extremely useful thing to have around and gets vastly more use than I ever imagined. Obviously they are not for everyone but if you can accommodate an extra car and can charge it they are a very useful 2nd or 3rd car to have having around.I've got a mate who gave up his M440i Coupe not long ago and bought a MK1 Leaf to run around locally alongside his VW Transporter project vehicle. I understand what DA is saying about the current newer EVs getting cheaper soon, but I think it will be quite a while before any are £2K. I think the Leaf MK1 has reached that level quickly because of its well documented range issues. I mean they are next to useless as anything more than "station cars" or "tesco cars" once they get to 80K miles, but for some people, that's actually enough. Most days when I WFH, my only driving is a 3 mile round trip to the local Costa for my daily chin wag with 3 mates. The Leaf MK1 on its 50 mile range is absolutely fit for purpose on that score!!
greenarrow said:
Please DO a readers car write up - would be most helpful.
I've got a mate who gave up his M440i Coupe not long ago and bought a MK1 Leaf to run around locally alongside his VW Transporter project vehicle. I understand what DA is saying about the current newer EVs getting cheaper soon, but I think it will be quite a while before any are £2K. I think the Leaf MK1 has reached that level quickly because of its well documented range issues. I mean they are next to useless as anything more than "station cars" or "tesco cars" once they get to 80K miles, but for some people, that's actually enough. Most days when I WFH, my only driving is a 3 mile round trip to the local Costa for my daily chin wag with 3 mates. The Leaf MK1 on its 50 mile range is absolutely fit for purpose on that score!!
You could do all that with a mobility scooter and a G&T though. I've got a mate who gave up his M440i Coupe not long ago and bought a MK1 Leaf to run around locally alongside his VW Transporter project vehicle. I understand what DA is saying about the current newer EVs getting cheaper soon, but I think it will be quite a while before any are £2K. I think the Leaf MK1 has reached that level quickly because of its well documented range issues. I mean they are next to useless as anything more than "station cars" or "tesco cars" once they get to 80K miles, but for some people, that's actually enough. Most days when I WFH, my only driving is a 3 mile round trip to the local Costa for my daily chin wag with 3 mates. The Leaf MK1 on its 50 mile range is absolutely fit for purpose on that score!!
On a serious note, I think Leaf's are a little exceptional because of the market fear of them which does mean that if you have a use case that fits their properly great value. I also agree that I don't think we'll see the later crop of EVs hitting £2k any time soon, but give them a few years and their values will represent similar levels of bargain for folks who need a little more range. The key being that for the next few years while the infrastructure very slowly builds out and only a particular use case can take advantage there will continue to be some great used EV opportunities.
There is a significant difference in performance between the MK1 24kwh leaf and the newer 40kwh. Something like 50hp more in the newer one. Then the 60kwh has another 50hp which is quicker again.
I drive our 40kwh like a stole it most of the time, including driving it on its door handles where appropriate. They are a far better car to drive than a similar age ZOE or Kia soul, you can really push then hard before the traction control kills everything, the ZOE was awful for that.
If you're after a cheap EV for local stuff there isn't a better time to get into a MK2 40kw leaf ...I'd pass on the frog eyed MK1 unless your budget is that limited....they can't get Kuch cheaper than they are now.
I drive our 40kwh like a stole it most of the time, including driving it on its door handles where appropriate. They are a far better car to drive than a similar age ZOE or Kia soul, you can really push then hard before the traction control kills everything, the ZOE was awful for that.
If you're after a cheap EV for local stuff there isn't a better time to get into a MK2 40kw leaf ...I'd pass on the frog eyed MK1 unless your budget is that limited....they can't get Kuch cheaper than they are now.
ks. just that.greenarrow said:
Please DO a readers car write up - would be most helpful.
I've got a mate who gave up his M440i Coupe not long ago and bought a MK1 Leaf to run around locally alongside his VW Transporter project vehicle. I understand what DA is saying about the current newer EVs getting cheaper soon, but I think it will be quite a while before any are £2K. I think the Leaf MK1 has reached that level quickly because of its well documented range issues. I mean they are next to useless as anything more than "station cars" or "tesco cars" once they get to 80K miles, but for some people, that's actually enough. Most days when I WFH, my only driving is a 3 mile round trip to the local Costa for my daily chin wag with 3 mates. The Leaf MK1 on its 50 mile range is absolutely fit for purpose on that score!!
Genuinely I'd really quite like a Leaf (or similar) for this kind of local trip usage. The economics just don't make sense. I've got a mate who gave up his M440i Coupe not long ago and bought a MK1 Leaf to run around locally alongside his VW Transporter project vehicle. I understand what DA is saying about the current newer EVs getting cheaper soon, but I think it will be quite a while before any are £2K. I think the Leaf MK1 has reached that level quickly because of its well documented range issues. I mean they are next to useless as anything more than "station cars" or "tesco cars" once they get to 80K miles, but for some people, that's actually enough. Most days when I WFH, my only driving is a 3 mile round trip to the local Costa for my daily chin wag with 3 mates. The Leaf MK1 on its 50 mile range is absolutely fit for purpose on that score!!
Most days I do little more than the school run. Take today for example, 3.6mi but some days I do it both morning and afternoon.
In the interests of fairness I've just spent some time with my google timeline noting down every trip for the last 10 months (10 rather than 12 because schooling circumstances changed this school year so the avg journeys will change). Every trip under 50 miles unless I know explicitly a Leaf not suitable I put down as "EV", long trips, towing, holidays where doing big miles I've put down as ICE.
The stats. Total travelled 5860 miles, so ~7k/year. Avg daily mileage 19.3 miles... Longest single trip 544 miles.
EV suitable 2k. So ~2.4k/year and avg daily usage 9 miles.
Issue is with only 2.4k of local trips like that there isn't much saving.
For 2.4k/year. estimate 2p/mile at (9p/kwh). That's £48 in electricity
Car does about 5.5 mile/litre on average so (at the current £1.4/litre) that's 25p/mile. Ouch. Except we're only saving 2.4k miles so £599...knock the £48 off. £551, knock insurance off[1] £191, knock MOT off (cheapest £30 one you can get) and we're saving all of ~£160/year. Ignoring any and all "other" running costs (I'm sure it will at *some* point need tyres etc).
So a £2k leaf is looking at a payback period of 12 years and I highly doubt a ~10 year plus £2k Leaf will last that without throwing a massive bill!
[1] Genuinely did a quote for one, cheapest quote £362.
Edited by Fastdruid on Tuesday 25th June 23:05
Fastdruid said:
...[1] Genuinely did a quote for one, cheapest quote £362.
...
Assume that quote was a mini WTF?...
A few weeks ago I was comparing mere-kats &
M3P - owch (but needed to be done)
Yaris Hybrid - not much less (out of interest)
Prius - not much less again (out of interest again & somewhat depressing for something so uninteresting).
E46 330D - bargain, half that Leaf figure (so may as well happen sooner rather than later to keep another 9+ years NCB alive).
RichardD said:
Fastdruid said:
...[1] Genuinely did a quote for one, cheapest quote £362.
...
Assume that quote was a mini WTF?...
A few weeks ago I was comparing mere-kats &
M3P - owch (but needed to be done)
Yaris Hybrid - not much less (out of interest)
Prius - not much less again (out of interest again & somewhat depressing for something so uninteresting).
E46 330D - bargain, half that Leaf figure (so may as well happen sooner rather than later to keep another 9+ years NCB alive).
The Leaf is an insurance group 22, daily 27.
ruggedscotty said:
had a leaf suprise me in a 2.5 six pot 200hp Z4 - it was a lot faster off of the mark than I had thought... plus the guy smiling after it didnt help. yeah bit its not an inline six it sounds siht and cant drop the roof yadda yadda... it was quick though gave me a suprise.
Its surprising how nippy the EVs are, even the ones which people think are 'slow' compared to the performance ones. We have a Cupra born and when you stick it in Performance mode its fairly rapid, don't get me wrong its not going to beat a 300bhp car but its surprising how quick they get off the line and even to 60. My advice on owning an EV is to reserve judgement until you have driven one, not just been in one but actually driven one. Range aside, the experience of driving an EV was an eye opener for me considering I was always against them. Genuinely prefer driving the Born over the 330D now, the BMW just feels noisy and unrefined compared to the EV. Each to their own and obviously people have circumstances where EV ownership would simply not work or not be practical (long journeys regularly, no ability to charge at home etc) but I would go and drive one before you write them off completely.
RichardD said:
Assume that quote was a mini WTF?
A few weeks ago I was comparing mere-kats &
M3P - owch (but needed to be done)
Yaris Hybrid - not much less (out of interest)
Prius - not much less again (out of interest again & somewhat depressing for something so uninteresting).
E46 330D - bargain, half that Leaf figure (so may as well happen sooner rather than later to keep another 9+ years NCB alive).
Insurance quotes are strange. I've got a couple of quotes;A few weeks ago I was comparing mere-kats &
M3P - owch (but needed to be done)
Yaris Hybrid - not much less (out of interest)
Prius - not much less again (out of interest again & somewhat depressing for something so uninteresting).
E46 330D - bargain, half that Leaf figure (so may as well happen sooner rather than later to keep another 9+ years NCB alive).
2020 Tesla Model 3 Performance - £439 (total £600 excess)
2020 Nissan Leaf - £398 (total £400 excess)
Both my wife and I are early 40's, both down as named drivers.
The other day we decided on the spur of the moment to drive down to the coast for the day.
Hopped into the car which was only 50% charged as I hadn't bothered to plug it in the night before and had left plenty of space for excess solar during the day.
Set off, had a great day and drove back, arriving with 30 miles range left.
The thing is, it didn't even occur to me to check where we might charge if we had needed more range, and there was no discussion at all about taking one of the ICE cars.
Before actually getting an EV I wouldn't have had that confidence.
18 months later and 20,000 miles of real world living with an EV I do.
That's a very real example of how the infrastructure has and is improving, by the time most people are in EV's it won't be a problem, trust me.,
Hopped into the car which was only 50% charged as I hadn't bothered to plug it in the night before and had left plenty of space for excess solar during the day.
Set off, had a great day and drove back, arriving with 30 miles range left.
The thing is, it didn't even occur to me to check where we might charge if we had needed more range, and there was no discussion at all about taking one of the ICE cars.
Before actually getting an EV I wouldn't have had that confidence.
18 months later and 20,000 miles of real world living with an EV I do.
That's a very real example of how the infrastructure has and is improving, by the time most people are in EV's it won't be a problem, trust me.,
740EVTORQUES said:
The other day we decided on the spur of the moment to drive down to the coast for the day.
Hopped into the car which was only 50% charged as I hadn't bothered to plug it in the night before and had left plenty of space for excess solar during the day.
Set off, had a great day and drove back, arriving with 30 miles range left.
The thing is, it didn't even occur to me to check where we might charge if we had needed more range, and there was no discussion at all about taking one of the ICE cars.
Before actually getting an EV I wouldn't have had that confidence.
18 months later and 20,000 miles of real world living with an EV I do.
That's a very real example of how the infrastructure has and is improving, by the time most people are in EV's it won't be a problem, trust me.,
How is that a very real example of infrastructure improving if you charge at home and didn't use any infrastructure on your day trip to the coast?Hopped into the car which was only 50% charged as I hadn't bothered to plug it in the night before and had left plenty of space for excess solar during the day.
Set off, had a great day and drove back, arriving with 30 miles range left.
The thing is, it didn't even occur to me to check where we might charge if we had needed more range, and there was no discussion at all about taking one of the ICE cars.
Before actually getting an EV I wouldn't have had that confidence.
18 months later and 20,000 miles of real world living with an EV I do.
That's a very real example of how the infrastructure has and is improving, by the time most people are in EV's it won't be a problem, trust me.,
TheBinarySheep said:
Insurance quotes are strange. I've got a couple of quotes;
2020 Tesla Model 3 Performance - £439 (total £600 excess)
2020 Nissan Leaf - £398 (total £400 excess)
Both my wife and I are early 40's, both down as named drivers.
Useful info 2020 Tesla Model 3 Performance - £439 (total £600 excess)
2020 Nissan Leaf - £398 (total £400 excess)
Both my wife and I are early 40's, both down as named drivers.
& congrats on the better M3P quote than mine, the Direct Line renewal would have been nearly double that for an older car and older drivers!MightyBadger said:
740EVTORQUES said:
The other day we decided on the spur of the moment to drive down to the coast for the day.
Hopped into the car which was only 50% charged as I hadn't bothered to plug it in the night before and had left plenty of space for excess solar during the day.
Set off, had a great day and drove back, arriving with 30 miles range left.
The thing is, it didn't even occur to me to check where we might charge if we had needed more range, and there was no discussion at all about taking one of the ICE cars.
Before actually getting an EV I wouldn't have had that confidence.
18 months later and 20,000 miles of real world living with an EV I do.
That's a very real example of how the infrastructure has and is improving, by the time most people are in EV's it won't be a problem, trust me.,
How is that a very real example of infrastructure improving if you charge at home and didn't use any infrastructure on your day trip to the coast?Hopped into the car which was only 50% charged as I hadn't bothered to plug it in the night before and had left plenty of space for excess solar during the day.
Set off, had a great day and drove back, arriving with 30 miles range left.
The thing is, it didn't even occur to me to check where we might charge if we had needed more range, and there was no discussion at all about taking one of the ICE cars.
Before actually getting an EV I wouldn't have had that confidence.
18 months later and 20,000 miles of real world living with an EV I do.
That's a very real example of how the infrastructure has and is improving, by the time most people are in EV's it won't be a problem, trust me.,
What I mean is that setting off without planning where to recharge would have been unthinkably anxiety provoking even a couple of years ago. Having lived with the EV though, I'm sufficiently confident in the public charging network that it doesn't even cross my mind to check where I would recharge should I need to. Bearing in mind that this is not a regular journey I do and so I have no idea where the chargers are, just that I'm confident they are there should I need one, with little or no inconvenience.
In effect I'm now treating my car like an ICE vehicle, where you would not check the location and availability of petrol stations before setting off, would you? Isn't that what EV sceptics are always calling for?
I can understand why people who haven't had EV's might still have range (or more correctly charge) anxiety, however having lived with one for 18 months now I don't any more. That's a real change.
barryrs said:
I know somebody who works there.Out of all the millions of EVs on the road how many are powered by Cornish lithium?
Edited by MightyBadger on Wednesday 26th June 10:33
Having sold previous family car near as dammit exactly 2 years from purchasing it used, for the first time I figured i would do a proper "true cost of ownership", then see how it compares with the MY24 Polestar 2 LRDM on BIK that replaces it.
It was a fully loaded ex-dealer principle Volvo V90 D5 Inscription, 2017. Bought outright for £24,795, sold on Motorway for £18,001. Did 33,562 miles in 2 years (i reset the computer before driving off the forecourt!), serviced it twice at Volvo at great expense, it did 41.5 mpg, cost about £370 to insure, had to spend on two tyres, a service battery, and a door strap, and had one year of the extra tax because of original purchase price.
Chuck every penny of that into a spreadsheet, and it's £16,423. Or - £684.28 per month, £2.04 per mile. If i normalise that to the 12k per year we have the new car for - it's £616.63 per month. This car did more miles than the BIK deal - but last job required it, and new job does not.
Polestar 2 is £503 per month. Assuming efficiency at 3.5 Kwh/mile, and charging at home 99% of the time on Octopus Go (so let's say 10p per Kwh to account for rare public charge), and total cost for 12k miles is £531.57 per month. With a much higher degree of certainty.
However you see tax incentives here is irrelevant - they are a thing, so make hay while the sun shines, etc
In my case, I've swapped a car that cost ~£46k when new but was 5 years old when i bought it for almost half that for a near 50k brand new car, and it's costing objectively less, without any doubt.
And to repeat a point oft made here... it's just transport. It's just a family car - it doesn't ride as well, but it's so so much more refined and relaxing in the traffic jams most of us spend a lot of time in. Whooo cares about the turbodiesel it replaces? Nobody experiences the "thrill of driving" for 95% of the boring miles we all do every day.
My example was just a used car bought in cash, make the ICE car newer, more expensive, and on finance - and the gap to BiK gets even bigger. If you have means to charge, a BIK option, and don't regularly drive more than 250 miles without stopping for a poo, then why wouldn't you?
It was a fully loaded ex-dealer principle Volvo V90 D5 Inscription, 2017. Bought outright for £24,795, sold on Motorway for £18,001. Did 33,562 miles in 2 years (i reset the computer before driving off the forecourt!), serviced it twice at Volvo at great expense, it did 41.5 mpg, cost about £370 to insure, had to spend on two tyres, a service battery, and a door strap, and had one year of the extra tax because of original purchase price.
Chuck every penny of that into a spreadsheet, and it's £16,423. Or - £684.28 per month, £2.04 per mile. If i normalise that to the 12k per year we have the new car for - it's £616.63 per month. This car did more miles than the BIK deal - but last job required it, and new job does not.
Polestar 2 is £503 per month. Assuming efficiency at 3.5 Kwh/mile, and charging at home 99% of the time on Octopus Go (so let's say 10p per Kwh to account for rare public charge), and total cost for 12k miles is £531.57 per month. With a much higher degree of certainty.
However you see tax incentives here is irrelevant - they are a thing, so make hay while the sun shines, etc
In my case, I've swapped a car that cost ~£46k when new but was 5 years old when i bought it for almost half that for a near 50k brand new car, and it's costing objectively less, without any doubt.
And to repeat a point oft made here... it's just transport. It's just a family car - it doesn't ride as well, but it's so so much more refined and relaxing in the traffic jams most of us spend a lot of time in. Whooo cares about the turbodiesel it replaces? Nobody experiences the "thrill of driving" for 95% of the boring miles we all do every day.
My example was just a used car bought in cash, make the ICE car newer, more expensive, and on finance - and the gap to BiK gets even bigger. If you have means to charge, a BIK option, and don't regularly drive more than 250 miles without stopping for a poo, then why wouldn't you?
Ive had my model y for 8 months and 14k miles. Ive used the charging network about 5 times, all of them uneventful.
Tesla wins hands down for cost and ease of use. But with my octopus rfid card other than the expense it’s nearly as easy using the others.
It’s our main car. I’ve done one trip where I took my petrol car as I was nervous about range but that was at the very beginning. I now just use it as a car. No range anxiety.
I’ve also convinced my parents to trade their petrol audi in for a cupra born. It’s early days but my mother who has no interest at all in cars and is a technophobe loves it.
Tesla wins hands down for cost and ease of use. But with my octopus rfid card other than the expense it’s nearly as easy using the others.
It’s our main car. I’ve done one trip where I took my petrol car as I was nervous about range but that was at the very beginning. I now just use it as a car. No range anxiety.
I’ve also convinced my parents to trade their petrol audi in for a cupra born. It’s early days but my mother who has no interest at all in cars and is a technophobe loves it.
cidered77 said:
£684.28 per month, £2.04 per mile. If i normalise that to the 12k per year we have the new car for - it's £616.63 per month. This car did more miles than the BIK deal - but last job required it, and new job does not.
Polestar 2 is £503 per month. Assuming efficiency at 3.5 Kwh/mile, and charging at home 99% of the time on Octopus Go (so let's say 10p per Kwh to account for rare public charge), and total cost for 12k miles is £531.57 per month.
Holy cr@p that is some monthly outgoing on getting from a to b.Polestar 2 is £503 per month. Assuming efficiency at 3.5 Kwh/mile, and charging at home 99% of the time on Octopus Go (so let's say 10p per Kwh to account for rare public charge), and total cost for 12k miles is £531.57 per month.
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