Why take a soft-top over hard-top convertible?
Discussion
I don't think there has been a new hard-top 4-seater convertible launched recently. BMW have done away with them altogether on all their models.
So I have a soft-top and I am thinking about selling it because:
1. It is noisy with the roof down but also with the roof up if I reach motorway speeds
2. It is heavy and kills fuel because of it
3. When there's a thunderstorm going on it doesn't feel great having just cloth over your head
4. The roof always has issues - microswitches not working, cover locks malfunctioning. The soft-top is not that reliable.
5. Maintenance of the soft-top fabric requires cleaning and waterproofing which is not a hassle by any means but an unkept roof leads to mould. Also the rear window is prone to falling out due to age/heat.
Of course the noise and wind with the roof down would apply to a hard top convertible as well, but at least the hard top becomes a secure and quiet place to be when you want to travel at speed safely over long distances.
So why have manufacturers ditched the hard-top convertible idea and gone to soft-top?
And the next question I suppose is do people really enjoy using a convertible as a family car (not sports cars)? How can you enjoy the car when travelling at speeds say 60mph+ causes too much noise and wind and there's also not enough boot space when the roof down?
I'm thinking about selling mine because I just don't get it even though I really want to. I've driven barely 500 miles and with the weather as it is I am thinking it was all just hype over nothing - like living in a studio flat in central London.
So I have a soft-top and I am thinking about selling it because:
1. It is noisy with the roof down but also with the roof up if I reach motorway speeds
2. It is heavy and kills fuel because of it
3. When there's a thunderstorm going on it doesn't feel great having just cloth over your head
4. The roof always has issues - microswitches not working, cover locks malfunctioning. The soft-top is not that reliable.
5. Maintenance of the soft-top fabric requires cleaning and waterproofing which is not a hassle by any means but an unkept roof leads to mould. Also the rear window is prone to falling out due to age/heat.
Of course the noise and wind with the roof down would apply to a hard top convertible as well, but at least the hard top becomes a secure and quiet place to be when you want to travel at speed safely over long distances.
So why have manufacturers ditched the hard-top convertible idea and gone to soft-top?
And the next question I suppose is do people really enjoy using a convertible as a family car (not sports cars)? How can you enjoy the car when travelling at speeds say 60mph+ causes too much noise and wind and there's also not enough boot space when the roof down?
I'm thinking about selling mine because I just don't get it even though I really want to. I've driven barely 500 miles and with the weather as it is I am thinking it was all just hype over nothing - like living in a studio flat in central London.
Edited by Gericho on Friday 28th June 14:39
Edited by Gericho on Friday 28th June 15:45
'Hard top' convertibles are often NOT more refined or quieter than their equivalent soft top options.
They are also hugely more complex and usually heavier. Usually lead to much reduced boot spare or interior space too.
Mercedes also stated outright that they went back to 'soft' soft tops on some of their premium products like E Class, as if a customer wants a convertible, they want it to look like a convertible not a cut and shut (some of the hardtops look awful).
I would (and have) always chosen a traditional fabric convertible roof over a folding hard top.
Remember the VW Eos? And how bloody awful they were in comparision to the good old Golf convertible?
They are also hugely more complex and usually heavier. Usually lead to much reduced boot spare or interior space too.
Mercedes also stated outright that they went back to 'soft' soft tops on some of their premium products like E Class, as if a customer wants a convertible, they want it to look like a convertible not a cut and shut (some of the hardtops look awful).
I would (and have) always chosen a traditional fabric convertible roof over a folding hard top.
Remember the VW Eos? And how bloody awful they were in comparision to the good old Golf convertible?
I was of the same opinion as the OP for many years when I was younger, and then the more I worked in the industry the more I changed my mind.
It's one of those things that on paper is the best of both worlds, but in reality is so compromised that any design or performance led manufacturer quickly moved away from folding hard tops.
As has been already mentioned above, the main reasons are: added complexity, weight, and the absolutely catastrophic packaging requirements which end up ruining the looks and usability of the car.
Folding hard tops do very little for structural rigidity, so any structure-borne noise issues are no better (and often worse due to squeaks/rattles) than a soft top. As for airborne noise, modern 3-layer soft tops are pretty good in terms of noise and refinement!
The only cars I can think of where a folding hard top has worked "relatively" well are the first two generations of SLK (because no rear seats and it was developed from the ground up with the hard-top body style), and some of the Megane/Focus/Volvo cars of the late noughties because they had no redeeming driving characteristics and such weird cab-forward proportions to start with, that the hardtop didn't make it any worse.
It's one of those things that on paper is the best of both worlds, but in reality is so compromised that any design or performance led manufacturer quickly moved away from folding hard tops.
As has been already mentioned above, the main reasons are: added complexity, weight, and the absolutely catastrophic packaging requirements which end up ruining the looks and usability of the car.
Folding hard tops do very little for structural rigidity, so any structure-borne noise issues are no better (and often worse due to squeaks/rattles) than a soft top. As for airborne noise, modern 3-layer soft tops are pretty good in terms of noise and refinement!
The only cars I can think of where a folding hard top has worked "relatively" well are the first two generations of SLK (because no rear seats and it was developed from the ground up with the hard-top body style), and some of the Megane/Focus/Volvo cars of the late noughties because they had no redeeming driving characteristics and such weird cab-forward proportions to start with, that the hardtop didn't make it any worse.
Gericho said:
So I have a soft-top and I am thinking about selling it because:
1. It is noisy with the roof down but also with the roof up if I reach motorway speeds
2. It is heavy and kills fuel because of it
3. When there's a thunderstorm going on it doesn't feel great having just cloth over your head
4. The roof always has issues - microswitches not working, cover locks malfunctioning. The soft-top is not that reliable.
2. A metal folding roof will heavier than a soft top1. It is noisy with the roof down but also with the roof up if I reach motorway speeds
2. It is heavy and kills fuel because of it
3. When there's a thunderstorm going on it doesn't feel great having just cloth over your head
4. The roof always has issues - microswitches not working, cover locks malfunctioning. The soft-top is not that reliable.
4. I suspect there are even more microswitches in a metal folding roof, plus a load more seals between each metal part that need maintaining and may leak even if you do (Focus CC etc. iirc)
snotrag said:
Remember the VW Eos? And how bloody awful they were in comparision to the good old Golf convertible?
The Golf convertible looked like Goebbels' pram with the roof down, horrible things and a useful reminder of how bad anyone sat in the back of a 4 seat convertible actually looks. The Eos served its purpose for the VAG faithful - a Golf in a fancy frock with an inflated price tag, bit like an Audi TT.I'd have thought the hard top would be more durable and need less maintenance (with the caveat that all electric folding tops are potentially s
te for reliability). I have a friend who had a Mini convertible and the roof went porous and mouldy inside. Accept there are treatments for that but you wouldn't need to do any of it with a hard top, or ever have to replace the material when it gets older. It looked scruffy at 8 years old.
te for reliability). I have a friend who had a Mini convertible and the roof went porous and mouldy inside. Accept there are treatments for that but you wouldn't need to do any of it with a hard top, or ever have to replace the material when it gets older. It looked scruffy at 8 years old.Rich Boy Spanner said:
I'd have thought the hard top would be more durable and need less maintenance (with the caveat that all electric folding tops are potentially ste for reliability). I have a friend who had a Mini convertible and the roof went porous and mouldy inside. Accept there are treatments for that but you wouldn't need to do any of it with a hard top, or ever have to replace the material when it gets older. It looked scruffy at 8 years old.
That's another for the list. Maintaining the soft-top with cleaners and waterproofing. And then after a while the rear window detaches because of age/heat. te for reliability). I have a friend who had a Mini convertible and the roof went porous and mouldy inside. Accept there are treatments for that but you wouldn't need to do any of it with a hard top, or ever have to replace the material when it gets older. It looked scruffy at 8 years old.I had a 335ci hard top and the F56 Cooper S,
the 335ci hard top have better thermal insulation than my F56
the noise insulation does not seem to be better on the 335
F56 had 1 sensor issue with my F56 and dealer fix it within warranty
335ci had numerous issue with my 335ci dealer could not fix and eventually I need to find an indie specialist
F56 never leak in my 4 years onwership, 335ci turn into a waterfall the 2nd years of my ownership
Never want a hardtop convertible again after the 335ci
the 335ci hard top have better thermal insulation than my F56
the noise insulation does not seem to be better on the 335
F56 had 1 sensor issue with my F56 and dealer fix it within warranty
335ci had numerous issue with my 335ci dealer could not fix and eventually I need to find an indie specialist
F56 never leak in my 4 years onwership, 335ci turn into a waterfall the 2nd years of my ownership
Never want a hardtop convertible again after the 335ci
Had an E85 BMW Z4 and for the winter months i fitted a proper factory hardtop to prevent any winter mould issues (the car lived outside 24/7). It was much quieter with the fitted hardtop but the soft top was never a problem, it was well insulated, never leaked and fine to live with day to day.Living with a soft top does have some compromises but a folding hardtop is a complicated and heavy item and does tend to make the car look dumpy and clumsy due to it's size.
OP,if a soft top isn't for you, don't fret about it, lots of people can't get on with them too.
OP,if a soft top isn't for you, don't fret about it, lots of people can't get on with them too.
Gericho said:
That's another for the list. Maintaining the soft-top with cleaners and waterproofing. And then after a while the rear window detaches because of age/heat.
My MX-5 is of 1992 vintage. I have never "maintained" the soft top with anything other than regular car shampoo, and rarely use of a brush. And the rear window has not detached. The roof is fine, the rear window is part yellowed only because the previous owner apparently rarely put the top up (in the sunny, hot Mediterranean) but never bothered to use the rear tonneau cover which is there for that purpose. So the exposed when folded part of the window, lying flat at near 90 degrees to the noonday summer sun, yellowed (but not cracked, and it's still in use).
As with everything some items are built differently and require different levels of maintenance.
snotrag said:
Mercedes also stated outright that they went back to 'soft' soft tops on some of their premium products like E Class, as if a customer wants a convertible, they want it to look like a convertible not a cut and shut (some of the hardtops look awful).
I would (and have) always chosen a traditional fabric convertible roof over a folding hard top.
Having had both I would totally agree, roof up or down the soft top always looked better. Also like you say, for the 9 months of the year where the weather is rubbish it still looks like a convertible, whereas the hard top looks like some awkward couple thing with weird dimensions.I would (and have) always chosen a traditional fabric convertible roof over a folding hard top.
Having fixed both I would say that generally speaking the hard top mechanisms are less complex and more reliable than soft tops. Faults are usualy electrical, although as they age both hard and soft tops will have issues with hydraulic cylinders leaking.
The hard top is very heavy though, compromises the cars proportions unless you use an expensive three part mechanism, boot space with the roof down is seriously compromised and they can have sealing issues if you buy one from a crap manufacturer (Eos).
I've had quite a few, but I'd say that four seater convertibles are not brilliant for family cars, they're very blustery in the back and in the front most are quite windy without the wind deflector in place over the rear seat. They're occasional rear seat use only cars with the roof down and many have quite poor rear seat space and headroom with the roof up.
The various products people put on soft tops do nothing whatsoever for water proofing, but they will stop dirt sticking. The actual waterproof qualities of the roof come from the rubber layers in the material ply and the fabric itself will never leak unless punctured, which isn't to say plenty of convertibles don't leak around the rubber seals, windows, and when the rear screen becomes unbonded. Fabric roofs can go green and mangy if you don't clean them of course, but folding hard tops need regular attention on all 500 miles of seals or they will creak and possibly leak.
Not sure what soft top you bought to have all those issues, it's either ancient or German to be so troublesome.
The thunderstorm thing is absurd, it's like not wanting to have the roof down in case a pterodactyl snatches you from your moving car.
The hard top is very heavy though, compromises the cars proportions unless you use an expensive three part mechanism, boot space with the roof down is seriously compromised and they can have sealing issues if you buy one from a crap manufacturer (Eos).
I've had quite a few, but I'd say that four seater convertibles are not brilliant for family cars, they're very blustery in the back and in the front most are quite windy without the wind deflector in place over the rear seat. They're occasional rear seat use only cars with the roof down and many have quite poor rear seat space and headroom with the roof up.
The various products people put on soft tops do nothing whatsoever for water proofing, but they will stop dirt sticking. The actual waterproof qualities of the roof come from the rubber layers in the material ply and the fabric itself will never leak unless punctured, which isn't to say plenty of convertibles don't leak around the rubber seals, windows, and when the rear screen becomes unbonded. Fabric roofs can go green and mangy if you don't clean them of course, but folding hard tops need regular attention on all 500 miles of seals or they will creak and possibly leak.
Not sure what soft top you bought to have all those issues, it's either ancient or German to be so troublesome.
The thunderstorm thing is absurd, it's like not wanting to have the roof down in case a pterodactyl snatches you from your moving car.
Edited by GeniusOfLove on Friday 28th June 20:48
I have an E89 Z4, and I like the hardtop it has - yes, there are issues they can get, but tbh an electro-hydraulic roof of any construction can be a very complex thing in terms of bork potential.
Haven't had any leaks (touch wood) despite some ridiculously heavy rain.
But no, it's not light.
I also have a Suzuki Cappuccino, where the hardtop is separate panels you remove and store in the boot yourself, but that's a very rare approach to making such a thing, and compromised one for most people (takes up the entire boot in a tiny car, the time/effort to get out the car and dismantle and stow it).
Ultimately, hard top, soft top, manual, electric, you have to look at which one appeals to you most, and check up on known problems with that specific model, you can't really say that there's a universal "all soft tops are X and all hard tops are Y"
Haven't had any leaks (touch wood) despite some ridiculously heavy rain.
But no, it's not light.
I also have a Suzuki Cappuccino, where the hardtop is separate panels you remove and store in the boot yourself, but that's a very rare approach to making such a thing, and compromised one for most people (takes up the entire boot in a tiny car, the time/effort to get out the car and dismantle and stow it).
Ultimately, hard top, soft top, manual, electric, you have to look at which one appeals to you most, and check up on known problems with that specific model, you can't really say that there's a universal "all soft tops are X and all hard tops are Y"
The only folding hardtop I can think of that were lookers were the Merc 2-seaters, especially the R230 (which looked good up and down) but that got away with it because it was huge for a 2-seater.
BMWs always looked a bit beetle-backed with the roof up, and anything small can't carry the mechanism within it proportions.
That said, you can go at least as wrong with fabric - prams and all that - and the problem with dumpier base cars persists.
BMWs always looked a bit beetle-backed with the roof up, and anything small can't carry the mechanism within it proportions.
That said, you can go at least as wrong with fabric - prams and all that - and the problem with dumpier base cars persists.
I think manufacturers decided that although hard top convertibles give a more solid secure feeling compared to a soft top, the compromises weren’t worth it.
The mechanisms are scarily complex. And all that heavy gubbins has to be packed up and stored somewhere i.e the boot. This compromises boot space.
It also requires quite a long boot section. All hard top convertibles have a certain look to them. A slightly over-long back end aesthetically speaking.
And makers probably worked out that buyers just want a convertible. They either aren’t bothered about, or don’t understand, any advantages a hard convertible was offering in any case. So why make life hard for yourself.
The mechanisms are scarily complex. And all that heavy gubbins has to be packed up and stored somewhere i.e the boot. This compromises boot space.
It also requires quite a long boot section. All hard top convertibles have a certain look to them. A slightly over-long back end aesthetically speaking.
And makers probably worked out that buyers just want a convertible. They either aren’t bothered about, or don’t understand, any advantages a hard convertible was offering in any case. So why make life hard for yourself.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff