Discussion
Just wondering, had my car MOT’d and the video the garage sends me shows the front disc brakes pads being measured for thickness, but my car has rear drum brakes, do they check them as well?
I haven’t had a car with rear drum brakes for along time, and haven’t thought about it before.
I haven’t had a car with rear drum brakes for along time, and haven’t thought about it before.
Often you can't see the inboard brake pads at all.
MOT test is a functional test on rolling road plus a visual inspection of the bits that can be seen without dismantling anything - such as your drum brakes which can't be seen without dismantling.
MOT is a test in that instant and says nothing about how the car will behave tomorrow. Hence all the confusion among people who somehow think an MOT test is virtually the same as giving them a 12 month warranty.
MOT test is a functional test on rolling road plus a visual inspection of the bits that can be seen without dismantling anything - such as your drum brakes which can't be seen without dismantling.
MOT is a test in that instant and says nothing about how the car will behave tomorrow. Hence all the confusion among people who somehow think an MOT test is virtually the same as giving them a 12 month warranty.
Panamax said:
MOT is a test in that instant and says nothing about how the car will behave tomorrow. Hence all the confusion among people who somehow think an MOT test is virtually the same as giving them a 12 month warranty.
Hmmm... I always assumed that the MOT would fail you on someting that they don't think will last a year, so a pass is an opinion that it should be ok for a year.Matt_T said:
Hmmm... I always assumed that the MOT would fail you on someting that they don't think will last a year, so a pass is an opinion that it should be ok for a year.
No, MOT is a meaningless piece of paper, and a very quick and brief safety inspection valid only at that time. Nothing more.It's up to you and your garage/mechanic to ensure your vehicle is safe and roadworthy at all times, and will last a year, or whatever time between services.
How can a random MOT tester know what you'll do to the vehicle in a year, to make any wild assumptions as to what might last or not ?
You could to 10 miles to the shop and back like Miss Daisy, or 100,000 miles of serious abuse, or anything in between
Checking the remaining friction material of drum brake shoes usually entails removing the little rubber sight bung in the backplate, not easy to judge how much is left through that slot..
Generally you are talking years or over 100k miles before rear brake shoes need replacing, but its worth removing the drums and cleaning checking and lubing during the regular full brake service, a fair bit of dust can build up inside and worth giving the friction material a roughen up with sandpaper/wire brushing.
Generally you are talking years or over 100k miles before rear brake shoes need replacing, but its worth removing the drums and cleaning checking and lubing during the regular full brake service, a fair bit of dust can build up inside and worth giving the friction material a roughen up with sandpaper/wire brushing.
stevieturbo said:
No, MOT is a meaningless piece of paper, and a very quick and brief safety inspection valid only at that time. Nothing more.
It's up to you and your garage/mechanic to ensure your vehicle is safe and roadworthy at all times, and will last a year, or whatever time between services.
How can a random MOT tester know what you'll do to the vehicle in a year, to make any wild assumptions as to what might last or not ?
You could to 10 miles to the shop and back like Miss Daisy, or 100,000 miles of serious abuse, or anything in between
Interesting, without an MOT, how many motorists would have their car checked by a garage, apart from none. Yes it only means it is roadworth the day/time it is examined, but from my recent MOT I would say its well worth it, first time mine failed on three things, none of which I would have been ware off.It's up to you and your garage/mechanic to ensure your vehicle is safe and roadworthy at all times, and will last a year, or whatever time between services.
How can a random MOT tester know what you'll do to the vehicle in a year, to make any wild assumptions as to what might last or not ?
You could to 10 miles to the shop and back like Miss Daisy, or 100,000 miles of serious abuse, or anything in between
Anti roll bar link broken, Steering rack gaiter missing, and OSF coil spring broken. Of course when I drive out all fixed, the other spring could brake, one last thing how many bother to check where they can, things they have paid for?, I had a cracked tyre and advisory to change it, paid around £80 for it, on cleaning the car the following week, noticed they had fogotton to change it, main dealer as well, wont use them again, could be a genuine mistake, but not good.
Like all good motorises I regularily wash and wax the car, keep the fluids topped up and tyres checked, and check lights, the amount of cars with defective brake lights is alarming. Thanks for all the comments guys, much appreciated.
Smint, thanks you for your commen Checking the remaining friction material of drum brake shoes usually entails removing the little rubber sight bung in the backplate, not easy to judge how much is left through that slot..
Vipers said:
Interesting, without an MOT, how many motorists would have their car checked by a garage, apart from none.
In my experience the vast majority of owners service their cars regularly, typically annually.If you aren't servicing your car at all then it's quite likely to develop failures which make it potentially unsafe, as well as eventually failing the MOT. And when you do eventually do repairs, they're likely to need to be more extensive than the would have been if you'd caught the problem sooner.
Anyone who is sceptical of the value of the MoT should go to the YouTube channel "Just rolled in":
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=just+...
Mainly from the US, where there is no national safety inspection, just State ones that can vary from detailed to none at all, it reveals some real shockers, all due to neglect and ignorance, that would be shared by UK drivers unles the MoT was in place.
John
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=just+...
Mainly from the US, where there is no national safety inspection, just State ones that can vary from detailed to none at all, it reveals some real shockers, all due to neglect and ignorance, that would be shared by UK drivers unles the MoT was in place.
John
There's much much more to check inside a drum brake than can be seen through a (pointless and misleading by its very existence) spy-hole, including....
...freedom of movement of both pistons of cylinder,
...contents of dust boots on those pistons,
...freedom of movement & return of handbrake arm,
...condition of handbrake cable and spring,
...completeness and freedom of movement (and indeed manual adjustment) of self adjusting mechanism,
...freedom of movement of the shoes against the backplate,
...condition and security of shoe springs and retainers
...security of bond of linings to shoes (VERY IMPORTANT!),
...condition of friction surface and wear lip inside drum,
...general clean and lubrication of all moving parts.
All the above issues will be regularly encountered in a commercial garage, even if you as an individual haven't.
Removing both drums to do the above is an essential part of every annual service, besides which it ensures that the drums will actually come off next time.
...freedom of movement of both pistons of cylinder,
...contents of dust boots on those pistons,
...freedom of movement & return of handbrake arm,
...condition of handbrake cable and spring,
...completeness and freedom of movement (and indeed manual adjustment) of self adjusting mechanism,
...freedom of movement of the shoes against the backplate,
...condition and security of shoe springs and retainers
...security of bond of linings to shoes (VERY IMPORTANT!),
...condition of friction surface and wear lip inside drum,
...general clean and lubrication of all moving parts.
All the above issues will be regularly encountered in a commercial garage, even if you as an individual haven't.
Removing both drums to do the above is an essential part of every annual service, besides which it ensures that the drums will actually come off next time.
Vipers said:
Interesting, without an MOT, how many motorists would have their car checked by a garage, apart from none. Yes it only means it is roadworth the day/time it is examined, but from my recent MOT I would say its well worth it, first time mine failed on three things, none of which I would have been ware off.
Anti roll bar link broken, Steering rack gaiter missing, and OSF coil spring broken. Of course when I drive out all fixed, the other spring could brake, one last thing how many bother to check where they can, things they have paid for?, I had a cracked tyre and advisory to change it, paid around £80 for it, on cleaning the car the following week, noticed they had fogotton to change it, main dealer as well, wont use them again, could be a genuine mistake, but not good.
Like all good motorises I regularily wash and wax the car, keep the fluids topped up and tyres checked, and check lights, the amount of cars with defective brake lights is alarming. Thanks for all the comments guys, much appreciated.
Smint, thanks you for your commen Checking the remaining friction material of drum brake shoes usually entails removing the little rubber sight bung in the backplate, not easy to judge how much is left through that slot..
If people wish to be negligent, lazy, dangerous, then there should be tough penalties for them for having unroadworthy vehicles.Anti roll bar link broken, Steering rack gaiter missing, and OSF coil spring broken. Of course when I drive out all fixed, the other spring could brake, one last thing how many bother to check where they can, things they have paid for?, I had a cracked tyre and advisory to change it, paid around £80 for it, on cleaning the car the following week, noticed they had fogotton to change it, main dealer as well, wont use them again, could be a genuine mistake, but not good.
Like all good motorises I regularily wash and wax the car, keep the fluids topped up and tyres checked, and check lights, the amount of cars with defective brake lights is alarming. Thanks for all the comments guys, much appreciated.
Smint, thanks you for your commen Checking the remaining friction material of drum brake shoes usually entails removing the little rubber sight bung in the backplate, not easy to judge how much is left through that slot..
There is no real excuse for it. Everyone knows it is their responsibility as the driver to ensure their vehicle is legal and safe at all times
And yes, everyone also knows, many roads are barely fit or safe.
But largely, most parts are all basic service/inspection items and should be routine for any good/competent garage.
And no, an oil change is not a service despite many fooling, or brainwashing people into thinking it is. A "service" should be a proper inspection of all service items that would be relevant to vehicles usage, age, mileage, etc etc etc that are subject to wear and failure.
There are many levels to these problems, inept garages, corrupt garages ( often dealers ), and often their general marketing where they have flashy adverts for "service your car for £40" or similar.
NO NO NO, that is not a f
king service.It is a massive dis-service to all their customers and those sorts of places should be held to account by trading standards, advertising standards or someone.
But they never are.
TwinKam said:
There's much much more to check inside a drum brake than can be seen through a (pointless and misleading by its very existence) spy-hole, including....
...freedom of movement of both pistons of cylinder,
...contents of dust boots on those pistons,
...freedom of movement & return of handbrake arm,
...condition of handbrake cable and spring,
...completeness and freedom of movement (and indeed manual adjustment) of self adjusting mechanism,
...freedom of movement of the shoes against the backplate,
...condition and security of shoe springs and retainers
...security of bond of linings to shoes (VERY IMPORTANT!),
...condition of friction surface and wear lip inside drum,
...general clean and lubrication of all moving parts.
All the above issues will be regularly encountered in a commercial garage, even if you as an individual haven't.
Removing both drums to do the above is an essential part of every annual service, besides which it ensures that the drums will actually come off next time.
All very true....freedom of movement of both pistons of cylinder,
...contents of dust boots on those pistons,
...freedom of movement & return of handbrake arm,
...condition of handbrake cable and spring,
...completeness and freedom of movement (and indeed manual adjustment) of self adjusting mechanism,
...freedom of movement of the shoes against the backplate,
...condition and security of shoe springs and retainers
...security of bond of linings to shoes (VERY IMPORTANT!),
...condition of friction surface and wear lip inside drum,
...general clean and lubrication of all moving parts.
All the above issues will be regularly encountered in a commercial garage, even if you as an individual haven't.
Removing both drums to do the above is an essential part of every annual service, besides which it ensures that the drums will actually come off next time.
New drums, cylinders, shoes, adjuster and cables once every 10 years and you're good to go.
I've never actually seen a set of pads completely wear down. The linings can fail, cylinders can leak and cables can seize. All make themselves apparent pretty quickly.
Whenever I've needed to service drums I just replace everything. It's so cheap to do you might as well while you're in there. That said my current car is the first to have drums in probably 20 years and I doubt I'll need to touch them for another 5 years minimum.
I've never actually seen a set of pads completely wear down. The linings can fail, cylinders can leak and cables can seize. All make themselves apparent pretty quickly.
Whenever I've needed to service drums I just replace everything. It's so cheap to do you might as well while you're in there. That said my current car is the first to have drums in probably 20 years and I doubt I'll need to touch them for another 5 years minimum.
stevieturbo said:
TwinKam said:
There's much much more to check inside a drum brake than can be seen through a (pointless and misleading by its very existence) spy-hole, including....
...freedom of movement of both pistons of cylinder,
...contents of dust boots on those pistons,
...freedom of movement & return of handbrake arm,
...condition of handbrake cable and spring,
...completeness and freedom of movement (and indeed manual adjustment) of self adjusting mechanism,
...freedom of movement of the shoes against the backplate,
...condition and security of shoe springs and retainers
...security of bond of linings to shoes (VERY IMPORTANT!),
...condition of friction surface and wear lip inside drum,
...general clean and lubrication of all moving parts.
All the above issues will be regularly encountered in a commercial garage, even if you as an individual haven't.
Removing both drums to do the above is an essential part of every annual service, besides which it ensures that the drums will actually come off next time.
All very true....freedom of movement of both pistons of cylinder,
...contents of dust boots on those pistons,
...freedom of movement & return of handbrake arm,
...condition of handbrake cable and spring,
...completeness and freedom of movement (and indeed manual adjustment) of self adjusting mechanism,
...freedom of movement of the shoes against the backplate,
...condition and security of shoe springs and retainers
...security of bond of linings to shoes (VERY IMPORTANT!),
...condition of friction surface and wear lip inside drum,
...general clean and lubrication of all moving parts.
All the above issues will be regularly encountered in a commercial garage, even if you as an individual haven't.
Removing both drums to do the above is an essential part of every annual service, besides which it ensures that the drums will actually come off next time.
And I'd wager that 99% of drum equipped private cars do not get them pulled. In fact it's no doubt higher. Its not included in any routine servicing that I'm aware of, even if the paperwork says it is.
GreenV8S said:
In my experience the vast majority of owners service their cars regularly, typically annually.
I am sure quite a few do, but to be honest would the average driver had picked up what my MOT failed on, do you see your neighbours scrambling under their cars at weekends?How many neighbours do you see doing their own oil change, not doubting some enthusiasts do right enough.
ChocolateFrog said:
It's absolutely NOT essential to pull the drums off every year.
And I'd wager that 99% of drum equipped private cars do not get them pulled. In fact it's no doubt higher. Its not included in any routine servicing that I'm aware of, even if the paperwork says it is.
Toyota major service (so every other year if you cover 10k miles a year or less) used to and probably still does include a full brake strip clean inspection and lube up, and yes they did the work properly on my then Hilux incl removing the pads and the rear drums, i checked when swapping the summer/winter wheels over and the various pivot points as noted above had been lubed.And I'd wager that 99% of drum equipped private cars do not get them pulled. In fact it's no doubt higher. Its not included in any routine servicing that I'm aware of, even if the paperwork says it is.
I'm not aware of any other mass market maker including correct brake servicing with routine servicing and judging byt the number of posts perfectly describing caliper neglect that appears to be the case, i would expect it to be done properly on the luxury and specialist makes where a full service is running into 4 figure sums.
I typically self service, all of our cars have rear drums, drum inside disc system so drums only for the park brake, typically i'll remove those every 2nd or 3rd year, they do so little work anyway and a periodic gentle application of the park brake whilst the vehicle is moving to clean the friction surface and a nip up of the manual adjusters once in a blue moon is all thats required.
ChocolateFrog said:
It's absolutely NOT essential to pull the drums off every year.
And I'd wager that 99% of drum equipped private cars do not get them pulled. In fact it's no doubt higher. Its not included in any routine servicing that I'm aware of, even if the paperwork says it is.
You try getting one off that's been there for a few years, internal adjusters and a huge lip on the drum.And I'd wager that 99% of drum equipped private cars do not get them pulled. In fact it's no doubt higher. Its not included in any routine servicing that I'm aware of, even if the paperwork says it is.
Then you'll maybe reconsider what maintenance should or should not be done.
Preventative maintenance costs little, and is good practice. But there are just too many cowboys out there who don't give a s
t.Whether that's every year, two years, or more, or less, again depends on vehicle usage, time between services, neglect overall etc etc.
But it is good practice to maintain vehicles properly.
Well said Steve, thanks for the back-up, and just to add that a brake cylinder can be bone dry one year and leaking the next (I give them less than 3 months from merely weeping to full-on leaking and contaminating the shoes...). And delaminated linings give no warning, but can completely lock up a wheel. You might not catch these things even if you do do the job properly and inspect them annually, but at least you're giving it/the customer a fighting chance.
I do so wish I'd met the Chocolate Frog 45 years ago though, if only I'd known, oh the time and trouble I could have saved myself!
I do so wish I'd met the Chocolate Frog 45 years ago though, if only I'd known, oh the time and trouble I could have saved myself!
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